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  • #9466
    magpie
    Flatchatter

      What do you do in the case of a very difficult owner/investor. I have been on the committee for a very small block of units for years. We struggle to get work done as our building shifts from owner occupiers to investors. We now face a very difficult new owner/investor who bombards the manager, committee and other owners with emails and threats. Long emails covering many issues and grievances may arrive on Friday afternoon but before you can respond there is a new long email on Monday. To draft a considered response can consume hours then you then receive a hostile response for your trouble. More allegations, more threats… I am beginning to think that anyone is totally mad to be an owner occupier in a small (or any!) building. You are especially mad if you are a committee member and work very very hard on behalf of investors who do not even attend meetings or offer support at all. Any advice?

    Viewing 6 replies - 16 through 21 (of 21 total)
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    • #24519
      Pamster
      Flatchatter

        Jimmy T, I don’t support abusive comments in any way, shape or form. I don’t know how you can say I support Isydowner’s abusive comments when I don’t even know what they are!

        I simply supported his comments disagreeing with the laissez-faire attitude the other writers were propounding in relation to EC members not responding to emails. Surely it’s beneficial to your readers to see this issue from both sides?

        Unlike Isydowner I won’t “spit the dummy” because you told me off and demand you close my account. I enjoy lively discussions and have even been known (albeit rarely) to change my mind (heaven forbid!).

        I enjoy reading the posts in the forum and have found them to be most informative and at times very humorous, I would like to continue doing so.

        #24520
        Jimmy-T
        Keymaster

          I think we have shown both sides of the story.

          There are people who know they are in the right and refuse to give up, even if it means hounding their EC with emails, letters and phone calls until they get a result. Often, that kind of sustained campaign is the only way to get results.

          And there are people who think they are right and refuse to listen when they are told that they aren’t.  There is no reasoning with someone who won’t see reason – these are the ones who can be a nuisance and it’s hard to know what to do when you are bombarded with illogical and abusive emails. 

          This also applies to committee members who refuse to listen.  But where do you draw the line? And when does a determined campaign become counter-productive? 

          I have been called a serial pest myself, on occasion. It’s a badge I wear with pride because by being determined and stubborn, I have effected change.

          And you’re not going to get bounced from this forum for taking a contrary opinion.  You’d be more likely to get locked out for agreeing with me in an abusive manner.

          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
          #24521
          Pamster
          Flatchatter

            Thanks Jimmy, can I get one of those “serial pest” badges?

            #24524
            Ray2U
            Flatchatter

              Considering the response from ‘isydowner’ (14/02/2016 – 9:02 am) to my last post it might be useful to others if I explain my philosophy on the relationship between the secretary and owners and that gives me strength to continue.

              When I first started the job of secretary I thought that I was secretary to the owners.  But, inevitably, I ended up opposing some owners who had broken by-laws or who had done unauthorised alterations to the common property. etc.  That caused me a philosophical conflict. To get it clear in my head as to where the boundaries lie, I worked out (by reading the Strata Schemes Management Act) that I was secretary to the owners corporation and I did not work for the owners.  That is, the owners corporation and the owners are two separate entities.

              To expand the point that the owners corporation and the owners are two separate entities, consider the following.  The owners corporation is a nebulous thing that does not have the power of thought, hearing, thinking or speaking.  So there are people who are “entitled to vote” at a meeting who are entrusted to make decisions on behalf of the owners corporation.  The people at a meeting will typically be a small minority of owners, some (who might not be owners) holding proxies, and some owners who can’t vote due to unpaid levies.  Even then, it is only the majority of that small group who decide what the owners corporation will do.  In a 20 lot scheme it could be as little as 3 people who agree and carry a meeting motion.

              So, logically and legally, the owners corporation is not the owners but is most often represented by a small mixed group of people at a meeting.  This clarity of boundaries between owners corporation and owners has helped me retain my sanity when dealing with all owners, particularly the difficult.

              For me and as secretary it is clear that I take instructions from owners corporation via the minutes of a meeting; nothing more.  I do not take instructions from owners.  If an owner wants something done then he/she has to persuade (via a general meeting) the owners corporation and have that requested agenda item judged by his/her peers.  And that process cuts the secretary out of any aggravated debate with a difficult owner.  Note that if I feel that an owner wants to do the right thing by the owners corporation I do all that I can to help him/her.  Conversely, if I think an owner is only self interested and shows little regard for the owners corporation, then I either ignore, or strongly oppose, him/her.

              Even if I wanted to promote an issue, I have limited legal powers.  Outside of an executive committee meeting (ECM) the secretary may decide to call, or not to call, an ECM (there are some caveats).  Within an ECM, the secretary may decide to vote a particular way.  That’s the sum total of what I can decide on behalf of the owners corporation; nothing more.

              Note that the Office of Fair Trading Strata Living booklet states: “No individual executive committee member can make a decision for the owners corporation”.  To expand that statement; outside of an ECM an executive committee does not exist.  Outside an ECM, all you have are individual executive committee members who are legally powerless to make decisions.  I know that’s not the way many secretaries and executive committees function, and that’s a big part of the problem.

              But what about the powers of owners? (this next bit is important to understand)
              Outside of an ECM, each and every owner has the same rights and responsibilities as any executive committee member.  Outside of an ECM an owner has access to the same resources, the same rights to put an agenda item on a general meeting, and the same general meeting voting rights as any elected executive committee member.  That is, if an owner is complaining that something is not being done, or should be done, then he/she is equally responsible.  And if the agenda item is defeated, then that’s democracy.

              Again, because it’s important and it needs clarity. Outside of an ECM and considering the legal authority of the players; in effect what is often the case is there is an abusive owner demanding that another owner (the secretary) work hard to fix the abusive owner’s problem.  As the other owner, why would you tolerate that?

              On the positive side and wherever possible I try to foster owner involvement. I get the owners to put their ‘wants’ on the next AGM agenda and I help them to provide the supporting detail (the owner talks to suppliers, gets quotes, and the like).  Some will assist and others will retort (in effect); “I don’t have time for that” and said as though I (the volunteer secretary) have nothing better to do.   I also make it clear to owners that if an item is put on the agenda and is not represented by them at the meeting then I will say “the owner is not here to give justification to the item” and I will oppose it. That is “no participate; no get” principle.

              An example is in play as I write this;
              Ryde Council recently changed how council cleanups are organised.  Now strata has to work with the council cleanup contractor to book in times, send notices to units, chase up the cleanup contractor, etc.  Not a trivial task.  

              About 6 months ago a difficult owner came to me wanting me to organise a council cleanup.  I asked her to assist with organising the cleanup but she came back saying (in effect) “It’s all too hard” so I ignored the request.  Last week I had a tenant asking for the same thing, and I asked her if she would like to assist.  “Glad to help in any way” she replied.  The tenant will get the council cleanup, the owner did not.

              All of the above approaches and philosophy has helped me to maintain the moral strength to weather the rubbish that some owners dish out, and all of the above is supported by the Strata Schemes Management Act.  

              To conclude; you have the right to say to a difficult owner “I am secretary to the owners corporation.  I am not your secretary.  Sort your own problems out.”.   And to those who want to argue that “You are a representative of the owners”, then it’s like any political appointment.  You get to choose who and what you support.

              #24526
              Pamster
              Flatchatter

                Thanks Ray2u, your philosophy seems sound and sensible. I wish my EC members acted in a similar way instead of being the megalomaniacs I have experienced of late.

                #24532
                taps
                Flatchatter

                  our strata is full of apathetic owners – who complain amongst themselves in their little groups then become aggressive at meetings (if they bother to turn-up). Last AGM 3 ppl out of 20 came.  we run fairly tight strata and because of the apathy there are only 2 committee members.  

                  recently one of outspoken long time residing owners came to my door complaining (at 8pm at night) – the issue was strata manager and owner related nothing to do with EC.

                  my parting line to this other owner in a very pleasant voice was:-

                  ‘i am not your staff’ – ‘please do not come to my home and treat me as your staff you do not employ me and as such i deserve respect as an owner just as i respected you up till this point’

                  ‘the OC employs the strata manager and pays them with strata fees every 3 months please remember that – as to your issue please speak to the Strata Mgr’  

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