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06/05/2013 at 2:01 pm #8818
We have just received the agenda to our AGM which, to my mind, contains a number of items which are not properly formulated and are not supported by any other documentation. For example there are three big-budget projects which will need to be voted on ‘on the night’ and the quotes and other support documents will only be available to those in attendance. (In addition there’s the solar panel proposal I have written about elsewhere.)
We have a Strata Manager, one of the big ones, it’s all on their letter head and I’m surprised our guy doesn’t seem to have advised the EC on putting this agenda together so it’s at least workable.
My question is, can someone please suggest a firm, organization or indeed anyone who knows what they are doing who, for a fee, could look at this agenda and confirm my beliefs and suggest how ‘little old me’ could throw a spanner in the works for the sake of propriety?
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06/05/2013 at 11:32 pm #18401
You could ask a strata lawyer to look at your question. In my experience you can give them the question and ask them to quote on preparing a response. If the amount is something you could afford you can go ahead, otherwise you have lost nothing.
Alternatively, you could just argue you case on the night, that there is insufficient documentation for owners to make an informed decision and should consequently adopt a conservative position. You may or may not persuade others on the night.
07/05/2013 at 5:31 pm #18405I politely asked the Strata Manager in an email for more information on the agenda items for the big projects ahead of the AGM so I could arrive at an ‘informed decision’ on how to vote but he replied with one simple line, “These will be tabled at the meeting”. I doubt he even asked the EC.
I don’t think this is good enough.
Can I propose motions at the meeting on the night to the effect that “I move that this motion be held over and not voted on because not enough information has been provided in time for owners to arrive at an informed decision.”
(Thanks PeterC, I will do this as well, while also hoping for more advice from Flat Chat readers, maybe even you, hopefully.)
08/05/2013 at 8:55 am #18409@ccbaxter said:
I politely asked the Strata Manager in an email for more information on the agenda items for the big projects ahead of the AGM so I could arrive at an ‘informed decision’ on how to vote but he replied with one simple line, “These will be tabled at the meeting”. I doubt he even asked the EC.I don’t think this is good enough.
Can I propose motions at the meeting on the night to the effect that “I move that this motion be held over and not voted on because not enough information has been provided in time for owners to arrive at an informed decision.”
(Thanks PeterC, I will do this as well, while also hoping for more advice from Flat Chat readers, maybe even you, hopefully.)
I think your proposed motion could be put. It is a procedural motion. It has the virtue that you allow the possibility that the proposals could be worthwhile and that you might support them with more information. It is standard that procedural motions can be proposed, and voted on if someone seconds the motion, during debate on a motion that was on notice. One can propose that ‘the question not now be put’ which shelves the motion. Another form is a motion to ‘proceed to the next business’ IE go to the next item on the agenda. Again the main motion remains on the shelf for another meeting. Yet another form is to propose to ‘adjourn the debate’ which put the item to the top of the agenda of the next meeting and the justification could be to gather more information for an informed debate.
Such an approach has the merit of being more likely to be supported because it indicates that you are not necessarily opposed, only requiring more information before you can support.
Note, you need to line someone up to second your motion.
08/05/2013 at 10:21 am #18411CCB, whilst the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act (SCMA) does include some provisions about meeting procedures and about some mandatory motions, it’s silent on details such as those about providing supporting documents and on the other issues that you’ve raised, so I’m not sure about the value of legal or more expert advice.
In consideration of this discussion and that following your other post about items to be placed on the Agenda for your upcoming AGM (e.g. for solar), even though it’s something that I don’t usually (if ever) advocate I think the time’s come for a boots-and-all approach.
Clearly your Strata Manager has forgotten who he’s working for and about the provisions of the rules of conduct that apply to him under the NSW Property, Stock, and Business Agents Regulation (Sch 1), and about the ability for owners such as you to seek remedies against him and your Executive Committee for unprofessional behaviours, improperly conducted Meetings, and for subsequent resolutions improperly taken (e.g. without adequate supportive documents).
So in addition to what’s been advised about you proposing on-the-day that certain motions on the Agenda be amended, where I’m of the opinion that one to adjourn the debate is best, you should print, complete, and place conspicuously in front of you at the Meeting an Application for Orders to invalidate certain resolutions under Sect 153 of the SCMA, and a Complaint Form against the Strata Manager and the Licensee (if the Strata Manager is an employee) under Sect.32 of the NSW Property, Stock, and Business Agents Act.
Right now….send a further e-mail to the Strata Manager advising that you’ve documented all past approaches (personal and in writing) to the Chairman and him, and what you WILL do immediately following the Meeting with regard to both the Executive Committee, him, and his Licensee if in your opinion that’s improperly conducted, and seek some firm support from like-minded owners, either personally or by their proxies, at the Meeting.
What I’ve proposed is a bit of a bluff, but be prepared to lodge the papers if thing’s don’t proceed as as they should; you’ve nothing to loose and everything to gain about ensuring propriety!
08/05/2013 at 11:54 am #18413Thanks PeterC and Whale. Your advice is most comforting. I keep thinking of the saying (I’ve mostly heard to do with investment) ‘if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is’. There must be a saying around such as ‘if something is so obviously wrong, it probably is’. That’s the case here on a number of fronts.
I am also going to do what I can to try and get owners to come to the meeting themselves instead of giving their proxy away, especially to someone that asks them for it. I think I mentioned ‘proxy harvesting’ is one of the issues.
08/05/2013 at 12:03 pm #18414I think the simplest thing is to canvass all your neighbours and tell them that there is not enough information for anyone to come to an informed opinion on the night, regardless of whether people support the projects or not.
And at the meeting you can put up an amendment that a vote on any of the projects should be delayed until such times as fully-costed budgets are made available to all owners.
Just make it a simple procedural motion that doesn’t accuse anyone of anything untoward. And make sure you have enough support in the building before the meeting.
Just a word to the wise: it helps a lot if you turn down the invective a bit when you are asking for support. Don’t let a right and wrong debate turn into a ‘me Vs them” battle.
A simple amendment proposed at the meeting to delay the votes to another General Meeting will seem reasonable and fair to most people.
By the way, you can propose amendments at a general meeting provided they don’t seek to alter the fundamentals of the motion. Delaying a vote is a valid amendment where, for instance, suggesting the money be spent on something else wouldn’t be.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
08/05/2013 at 3:28 pm #18418Another thank you, thank you, JimmyT.
Would it be strrreeetttccchhhiiinnnnggg the friendship to ask one last question?
When an unsympathetic chairman at our AGM i.e. the strata manager, let’s the predictable abuse, personal attacks and disruptive interjections run, is a forceful request for a ‘point of order’ enough? Such as ‘Point of Order’ please Fred (the Chair). Should you ask for your request for a point of order to be minuted or something? Or is there some other way to make him deal with things properly?
10/05/2013 at 1:47 pm #18432Jimmy may have missed your last post (he only has a dozen or so to “administer” every day
), but the abuse and personal attacks you’re again referring to was the basis of my suggestion that you turn-up the invective; subtle intimidation actually!
In response though, you could certainly call for a “point of order” but so far as I’m aware the minutes of General Meetings are covered by the same rules as those of Executive Committee Meetings, where those only need to record decisions on agenda motions and on any correspondence given to its secretary prior to the Meeting.
10/05/2013 at 2:56 pm #18436@ccbaxter – I think the core of your problems with getting support from other owners will be if your entire purpose is to “throw a spanner in the works”. Be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem. If the strata manager won’t help, speak with your executive committee direct. I am sure they will have more information and will willing to share if approached in a reasonable non-confrontional manner.
@Whale – the strata manager/secretary is obliged to put any motion on the AGM agenda that has been requested in writing by an owner with a right to vote at that meeting – whether or not the motion will be out of order. It will then fall to the chair of the meeting to call a motion out of order at the meeting itself.To me it sounds as if the motion on the agenda outlines the intentions of what decisions are being made. There is nothing wrong with tabling quotes at the meeting however it does make it difficult for owners supplying proxies to give voting instructions on these motions.
@ccbaxter – Go to the meeting. Listen to the information provided. Clearly state the reasons for your support or disagreement. Once a decision has been made and agreed to by the majority of the owners accept it and just get on with it.10/05/2013 at 3:16 pm #18437@ccbaxter said:
When an unsympathetic chairman at our AGM i.e. the strata manager, let’s the predictable abuse, personal attacks and disruptive interjections run, is a forceful request for a ‘point of order’ enough?
I’m not expert in meeting procedures but I would have thought you needed to have Standing Orders in place for a point of order to have any weight.
I keep thinking we should have a set of standing orders available for Owners Corps to adopt but I wouldn’t know where to start.
One very useful meeting rule is that each speaker only gets to speak once until such times as eveyone who wants to say something has had their say. It’s a little bit ponderous but it takes the heat out of some of these shouting matches when the call for silence is based on an agreed rule rather than the say-so (or not) of one person.
On the general question of insufficient information, our strata managers provide a comprehensive explanation of the breakdown of each budget item or proposal but it takes them about a week to compile the agenda because of that.
It’s obviously more expensive than your strata manager turning up with a few line items on a spreadsheet but everyone in the building is entitled to be informed – if they want to be. A motion for your next general meeting asking that all such matters be accompanied by a full budget might solve this problem in the future.
Meanwhile, I would stick by the idea of getting enough support to bounce the current proposals until such times as everyone has had a chance to look at the costings.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
11/05/2013 at 8:50 am #18442I’m not expert in meeting procedures but I would have thought you needed to have Standing Orders in place for a point of order to have any weight. I keep thinking we should have a set of standing orders available for Owners Corps to adopt but I wouldn’t know where to start.
Our owners corp at its first AGM in 1976 passed a resolution that meetings would be conducted according to Joske-“The law and procedure at meetings in Australi and New Zealand”. This is a little book about meeting procedures that has been around for a very long time and has been through various editions. My 90 year old father-in-law recently gave me a copy of the second edition that he got as an accounting student in his 20s.
Ideally, that should have been adopted as a By-law rather than just a resolution at the first meeting. Still, it has been occasionally useful for our chair to have a copy on hand that he can wave and quote when he says that he will accept an amendment to a motion or whatever.
I think there are various other more modern books along similar lines. To the extent that the Strata Act relevant in your state does not specify meeting procedures, owners could adopt Articles/By-laws/Rules to follow some such guide at its meetings. It would give a more objective standard by which the chair could assert some authority to control a debate or some owner to complain that a meeting was not properly conducted. Taking some well accepted reference is probable better than reinventing the wheel via a set of novel standing orders.
11/05/2013 at 9:20 am #18445@PeterC said:
Taking some well accepted reference is probable better than reinventing the wheel via a set of novel standing orders.
Hmmm … I don’t disagree with anything else you’ve said, except that last bit. Taking a well-accepted reference is certainly a lot better than nothing.
However, EC meetings are very unusual in that owners are legally allowed to attend but may not speak unless invited to do so. Most ECs work on the basis that once the beast is unchained, it’s free to roam – i.e. Mr Bloggs may be invited to discuss the matter of his garden gnomes, but once he has been unfettered, can he also speak about Mr Jones’ window frames? And how exactly does he ask to speak in the first place if he isn’t allowed to speak?
General Meetings tend to be more like a Town Hall meeting than a committee meeting and I think different rules again would apply there.
I can’t see the harm in people who’ve been through a few strata meetings coming up with a formula that Owners Corps can latch on to, especially when their meetings are being disrupted and/or unproductive.
Having said all that, I note that Joske (Which you can buy HERE for $96) claims to have “a thorough presentation of statutory law as it relates to meetings of unit title and strata title companies throughout Australia.” If it does, it’s worth every cent and I withdraw my previous comments.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
11/05/2013 at 3:17 pm #18450I didn’t want to bore everyone so I didn’t mention there are a lot of other problems here. The inappropriate proxy cluster complete with ongoing vendetta. The unhelpful, dishonest strata manager. The inept, inexperienced, proxy-enabled executive committee. The good, sensible owners who are prepared to put up with all the crap but are kept off the committee.
‘@Just get on with it’, you make it sound so easy. What’s wrong is, there are a lot of decisions involving big bucks to be made and they’ll be made by people actually at the meeting, not by a majority of more sensible owners who stay away because the meetings are so awful and they want to avoid the stress. These owners won’t see the budgets, quotes, supporting documentation.
04/06/2013 at 2:14 pm #18622Here’s an update on what happened at our AGM, if I haven’t bored anyone to death and I also include a request for a comment or two on a particular issue, if I haven’t stretched the friendship too much.
First, the solar panel motion was ‘deferred’ because there simply wasn’t enough information provided, nothing was clear-cut at all, especially costs and who was going to pay for the infrastructure and required by-laws. All Owners, or just those wanting to hook-up. And it wasn’t clear who they were. Someone asked if here were any ‘commissions or inducements’ involved and they were ruthlessly howled down, as if it was a very unreasonable and insulting question.
But there’s something which seems even more dodgy to me.
The Executive Committee, in the job through a proxy conga-line, wants a lot of work to be done fixing up a concrete common area (which has exclusive use car spaces, an issue I won’t get into now) and they sent out no plans or quotes with the agenda but had a few copies of a plan and just one of a quote for owners at the meeting to peruse. However they expected to get approval to spend very big dollars. As another fellow owner put it, that shows ‘great disrespect’ to other owners.
My memory of the meeting is, this issue was going to be held-over and another General Meeting would occur where quotes and plans would be sent out with the agenda so owners could consider them properly then vote on them at the EGM. I’m checking to see if my confidents agree with me.
Meanwhile, if anyone has the inclination to read the following agenda items and Minutes and tell me you agree it’s all a bit wooly, please do. Any opinion appreciated. Remembering there was nothing sent with the agenda, and really no chance to consider things in the, rather heated meeting.
AGENDA
17.1That the Owners Corporation review the design plan set out for the gardens and consider suggested changes.
17.2 That the Owners Corporation approve Stage 1 of proposed plan which looks at parking bay area new retaining walls and front garden path. (Plans to be tabled).
MINUTES
17.1 RESOLVED that the Owners Corporation reviewed the design plan set out for the gardens and approved these works to be done as per the plans tabled on certain conditions.
The plans are to be displayed at the building for all Owners and Residents to view.
The removal of the trees causing damages to car park is subject to Council approval.
The Committee are requested to look to spend to level of $40,000.00 This spending is to be monitored and input from Owners regarding the works, eg. Height of fences.
17.2 RESOLVED that the Owners Corporation approve stage 1 of the proposed plan which looks at parking bay area, new retaining walls and front garden path.
05/06/2013 at 11:34 am #18628ccbaxter – firstly, it’s customary for the owners who pay for (and own) the solar systems to also pay for the infrastructure (wiring, inverters, meters etc) and to be required to maintain that in accordance with the provisions of a Special By-Law, which they collectively pay for with regard drafting/preparation and registration.
Even though you “don’t want to get into it right now”, I should briefly advise that it’s also customary for those owners who benefit from the exclusive use of an area of common property to also be responsible for the maintenance of that area; either directly or by a reimbursement of the Owners Corporation’s maintenance costs . Does your Plan have an Exclusive Use By-Law in place?
With regard to the Agenda and Minutes, I agree with you that the former is extremely “wooly” and it follows that the latter is similarly so! Like what happens if the majority of those owners who view the plans on display don’t like what they see, and if the $40K “spend level” that’s probably intended to be an upper limit on spending is exceeded?
When you confirm your recollections of what was agreed with your confidents (sic), I strongly urge you to collectively write to whoever it was who took the minutes of the AGM, setting out what you all expect that the review process to be (e.g. an EGM), and request him/her to respond in writing if those expectations are incorrect; that is no response = confirmation of your recollections.
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