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  • #8979
    kiwipaul
    Flatchatter

      Not living in NSW I find the concept of SBL strange and it seems you need them for everything which is not cheap ($100 to register and up to $1000 to have then written by a lawyer).

      So I’m curious about how this applies in the real world (as opposed to the theoretical discussion on here).

      So Strata owners in NSW ans these 3 questions

      1) How many lots in your strata
      2) How old is your strata

      3) How many SBL are registered against your strata.

      Going by what has been said on here I would expect every lot owner to have to register at least 1 SBL every year. So the SBL section of the Bylaws could be massive (into the hundreds for older building (if not thousands)).

      The reason we don’t need SBL in QLD is the onus for maintenance of alterations falls on the lot owner as opposed to the Strata

    Viewing 9 replies - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
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    • #19208
      scotlandx
      Strataguru

        Why would every lot owner need one special by-law every year?   That’s a lot of renovation going on.

        #19209
        struggler
        Flatchatter

          Special by laws can be used as a deterrent for owners wanting to make changes that may not be for the good of the whole complex.  We have had a couple of occasions where owners have asked to make changes to common property areas of their units.  These changes could not have been done by all units, due to the different build types in this complex, so doing a blanket special by law to allow such changes would have benefited some but not most.  We also did not believe that these changes were a good idea.  These owners however argued and argued.  We were advised that should these works go ahead that a special by law, paid for by the owner and covering just the changes to the individual unit, be drawn up.  Suddenly these “simple changes” became something more with the additional cost of the special by law.  Needless to say the owners did not pursue.

          The only special by laws here are those that benefit the complex as a whole and every owner.  We had one done regarding the plumbing and bathrooms areas of the units.  This was after continuous requests from owners to do everything from change the washers in the kitchen to re do the bathroom please.  With the bathrooms we realised that in the model by laws any original tiles were considered common property however in this complex, where owners bought off the plan and could choose the colours, designs, fittings and fixtures to their hearts content, there is no such thing as an original tile. We have no idea what people chose for their units.  Perhaps my neighbour chose hand cut italian marble tiles and an imported toilet suite.  If so, and that was considered original, then we would have to replace like for like.  Not to mention that the owners in this complex, as I have stated on previous occasions, believe that living in strata means that they can change their bathroom without permission and do whatever they like and if it all goes to pot then their neighbours will have to pay to have it done again.  Hence the by law for bathrooms and plumbing.  

          We also have blanket approvals for foxtel dishes, whirly gigs, pergolas, all things that would benefit every unit in the complex.  If it benefits all, then the complex can have a by law drawn up.  But if it only benefits one, then that owner can pay and perhaps consider whether it is truely worth it, with the additional cost. 

          #19210
          kiwipaul
          Flatchatter
          Chat-starter

            @scotlandx said:
            Why would every lot owner need one special by-law every year?   That’s a lot of renovation going on.

             

             Struggler has answered the question for you.

            Take refitting a kichen say it lasts 20 years so after 20 years you will have 20 SBL if the strata consists of 20 lots and that is just one item.

            Same applies to bathrooms, toilets, wall cabinets (on common walls), the list goes on and on.

            I just do not believe in the real world these SBL are created.

            #19213
            Whale
            Flatchatter

              KP – I don’t know if your post was facetious, but just in case you weren’t just taking a shot at your NSW cousins, I thought I’d also clarify some matters.

              Firstly and on the subject of Owners renovating their Lots, whilst the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act (which is under review by the way) requires those Owners to seek the Consent of their Owners Corporation O/C) in advance of those renovations commencing, a Consent made by way of a Special Resolution at a General Meeting is only necessary where the proposed works involves an addition or alteration to, or the erecting of a new structure on the Common Property, and a Special By-Law is subsequently necessary only where the O/C wants to make those Owners responsible for the on-going maintenance, repair, and replacement of whatever it is that they’re adding, altering, or erecting and they agree to that.

              It possible and indeed usual for an O/C to create and register Generic Special By-Laws (SBL) allowing its Executive Committee (E/C) to grant Consent to the specific types of works with each having generic conditions, which in the case of our Plan applies to the installation of split-system air conditioners, replacing existing hotwater heaters with heatpumps, LPG systems, and/or solar systems, installing solar PV systems, and installing pay-tv.

              Similarly and using one of your examples, where a proposed renovation involves a new kitchen or a new bathroom, and that involves an addition or alteration to, or the erecting of a new structure on the Common Property, then our SBL sets out the terms of a Generic Consent and some Generic Conditions applicable to that including the use of licensed persons, liability insurance, days/hours of work, storage of materials, disposal of debris, parking, and noise.

              Clearly, where a proposed renovation doesn’t involve the Common Property, then the Owners seeks the O/C’s Consent in the normal way and only the Generic Conditions (above) apply as applicable.

              So as you’ll see there aren’t 20 SBL’s for each of 20 kitchen renos, just a Generic one covering all renovations of that type, and finally in the case of our Plan, a “catch-all” SBL accompanied by a Register of Changes and Additions to the Common Property to cover the situation where a renovating Owner doesn’t seek the Consent of the O/C, and where that SBL says (in legal jargon) “if whatever you’ve done isn’t in the Register, then in terms of ongoing maintenance, repairs, and replacements to that,  it’s all yours and that of every subsequent owner of your lot”.

              That’s the real world, NSW edition (where it’s 2013 by the way; Ay).

              #19218
              kiwipaul
              Flatchatter
              Chat-starter

                No I wasn’t being facetious Whale but I consider you a special case as you are far more knowledgable than your average SM let alone your average Strata owner.

                I just do not believe that the average Strata in NSW has generic SBL as you suggest (althought they should) and I am just trying to get a measure of what is happening in the real world, because without GSBL every change to the common property would require a SBL.

                I also belive as struggler suggests the requirement of a SBL is used to deter changes the the EC (SM) don’t want (especially when they insist it be drawn up by a lawyer).

                Strata owners have a right to know what they can and cannot do without being fobbed off with unreasonable demands. My OP would highlight how common SBL are in NSW. I suspect very rare (but I don’t know because I don’t live their).

                #19220
                struggler
                Flatchatter

                  A special by law is not a deterrent because the EC or SM doesn’t want whatever the owner is proposing.  It is a deterrent in that the owner may think that little change he or she wants to make is not worth the extra money nor the added responsibility. 

                  In the case of this complex the owners who wanted to change common property areas of their units wanted to do so without providing measurements, materials or any specifications.  These changes would have to comply with council regulations.  Therefore, one would need to know what the measurements and materials were.  One owner actually said that he would tell us the details after we had approved it.  

                  Neither of these changes would have been of benefit to all owners as these two units were end units and only had one common wall.  Both of these owners argued and argued that they should be allowed.  It was obvious that the EC was required to do alot of running around.  And by saying the EC, I mean me at the time.  So we were advised to firstly notify the owners that a special by law would be required to cover their works.  And they would have to run around providing the evidence that these works complied with council requirements.  They then decided that they did not want to pursue it.

                  We had another owner recently who proposed a generic special by law be drawn up for a change they wanted to make.  Again with vague information and specifications.  It was discussed at the AGM.  No other owner liked the idea of this proposed change.  And the owner in question did not want to pay for a special by law themselves.  Not such a good idea with the extra money.

                  On the other hand we do allow such things as pay tv satellite dishes on the roof tiles.  Even though most of us do not have pay tv.  It is probably less then 25%.  But we all agreed that this would be of benefit to the complex to allow this.  

                  By my stating that special by laws can be a deterrent I meant that it may make the owner think twice about their proposal.  They may see that it is really not worth the money let alone the extra money.  And if you don’t think it is worth the money, is it really such a great change for your unit or the complex? And in all honesty, the changes the above owners were proposing were not good ideas.   Would have looked out of place.  And if they ever put their places on the market, I believe alot of prospective buyers would have been put off by them.  So we probably saved them money in more ways than one.

                   

                  #19224
                  Whale
                  Flatchatter

                    KP – thanks for your comments, although I don’t think that I’m a “case” of the special variety Wink.

                    On a more serious note, in my experience the problem is not so much in practically dealing with the requirements of NSW’s 17 yo Strata Legislation in a way that doesn’t burden those Owners who want to renovate their Lots, but with those Owners who just go ahead with renovations undertaken by their handyman mates without advising anyone let alone the O/C.

                    #19227
                    kiwipaul
                    Flatchatter
                    Chat-starter

                      @Whale said:

                      On a more serious note, in my experience the problem is not so much in practically dealing with the requirements of NSW’s 17 yo Strata Legislation in a way that doesn’t burden those Owners who want to renovate their Lots, but with those Owners who just go ahead with renovations undertaken by their handyman mates without advising anyone let alone the O/C.

                      I totally agree in a well run Strata the EC should come down like a ton of bricks on serious breaches of the rules for the complex. And those people who do the right thing (obtain the permissions) should be given a fair deal.

                      My issue is with the badly run Strata (which I suspect are in the vast majourity) and not neccessarily due to malice but lack of knowledge of the correct procedures to follow. One prime example is the new post on here today.

                      How does one deal with apathy or indiffrerence from the SM, EC and OC when doing the right thing gets you nowhere, and those owners who ignore the rules are not penalised, it just encourages others to do the same.

                      I know because it applies to where I live.

                      #19229
                      Jimmy-T
                      Keymaster

                        @Whale said:
                        … on the subject of Owners renovating their Lots, … the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act … requires those Owners to seek the Consent of their Owners Corporation O/C) in advance of those renovations commencing, a Consent made by way of a Special Resolution at a General Meeting is only necessary where the proposed works involves an addition or alteration to, or the erecting of a new structure on the Common Property, and a Special By-Law is subsequently necessary only where the O/C wants to make those Owners responsible for the on-going maintenance, repair, and replacement of whatever it is that they’re adding, altering, or erecting and they agree to that.

                         

                        I’mm 100 percent with Whale on this but, just to clarify, in the majority of examples such as those cited by KiwiPaul, such as a kitchen renovation, the lot owner only has to ‘inform’ the EC 24 days before they commence work, provided they aren’t making changes to common property.

                        Many kitchen do-ups use existing piping etc so there is no need for a special resolution by-law.  If there is a more extensive renovation going on, I want to know what effect that will have on common property and I want legally binding guarantees that the lot owner and any subsequent purchasers will be liable for any stuff ups.

                        Yes, the system could (and probably will) be streamlined.  But KP’s fears of a new by-law every year are not borne out by the “real world” experience here in NSW.  I my duilding i can hear work going on and know that it will either be pre-approved by the EC, via a catch-all by-law,  or the miscreants will be dragged off to the CTTT for ignoring the by-laws.

                        The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
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