Back to the Surveyor?

› Flat Chat Strata Forum › Common Property › Current Page

  • Creator
    Topic
  • 11/07/2014 at 10:46 pm #9588
    bluehouse
    Flatchatter

      I was recently trying to work out which walls were common property in my townhouse so I could work out what renovations I can do without waiting for OC approval. But even with much research online about how to interpret them, I couldn’t work it out.  

      I got advice from the LPI and eventually the advisor came to the conclusion that the Strata Plan did not make sense given the actual plan of the house.  He said that unfortunately I can’t just use common sense to guess what the surveyor intended but need to refer back to the original surveyor to ask about it.

      He gave me a number for the surveyor but it is not correct.  I have googled him but I think he may have retired.  (The SP was done in 1994, so it wouldn’t be surprising if he had)

      So what is the next step?  

      There are 14 identical (or mirror image) townhouses in the complex, all with the same mistake on the plan, and evidently no one else in the last 20 years has found the need to check if the wall down the middle of the house was common property or not.  Or been confused why some of the external walls aren’t.  Am I being terribly pedantic?

    • Creator
      Topic
    Viewing 6 replies - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)
    • Author
      Replies
    • 12/07/2014 at 5:04 pm #21924
      kiwipaul
      Flatchatter

        When you say Strata Plan I assume you mean the registered plans lodged at the Lands dept which you can purchase for about $20 for your Strata. These should show a series of thick and thin black lines showing the boundaries of the lot and what is common and what is lot property.

        I have the same problem in QLD and cannot get a straight ans from anyone because the plans of our Strata conflict with the act and I suspect they were drawn on a Friday afternoon after a liquid lunch. From everything I’ve read the plans are the definitive ruleing as regards common property and even though they don’t make sense you still have to abide by them.

        I would love to discover this is not the case but I won’t hold my breath.

        Have a read of the Boundaries section on this link

        It’s for QLD but the convention on the drawing is the same throughout Oz it’s just the rules are different in different states.

        12/07/2014 at 6:46 pm #21925
        bluehouse
        Flatchatter
        Chat-starter

          Yes, I’m referring to the registered Strata Plans.  

          If anyone is interested these are the 3 best resources explaining how to interpret them that I’ve found.  All NSW but hopefully still helpful.

          https://nsw.stratacommunity.org.au/strata-community/free-online-executive-committee-training/  (you’ll need to register and go to the “Interpreting Strata Plans” module)

          https://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/143078/Strata_Plans_Fast_Facts.pdf

          https://www.bannermans.com.au/articles/strata-and-development/213-what-do-i-own-and-what-is-common-property

          I rang the Land and Property Information Service (what used to be NSW Department of Lands) for help and the advisor there pulled up the plans and ended up saying that they were unclear too.  The fact that they don’t match the outline of the house but we have to follow them, makes things some things very difficult, which is why he gave me the surveyors number.  But even if I can contact the surveyor I’m not sure what can be done anyway, since the plans were registered.

          The biggest problem is that the house has a wall running down the middle, parallel to the common side walls.  On the second storey the wall down the middle is marked as a common wall, but the outer wall that is physically common with the house next door is not present at all.  We can reasonably guess that the surveyor meant to put a bold line on the wall dividing the houses and mistook the internal wall for that one (14 times). Anyone looking at even just the front facade would realise the SP doesn’t add up, so maybe the liquid lunch theory applies here too.

          So I guess I have to assume that the wall that divides me from next door (not marked at all on that floor) and the internal one (marked with a thick line) are both common walls for the purposes of getting permission from the OC for alterations, and are both mine for the purposes of getting the OC to pay for repairs……

          13/07/2014 at 10:15 am #21926
          kiwipaul
          Flatchatter

            Must admit the first link was very informative but it has confused me even more especially Example 7 and Example 8 because they show a solid boundary line around the whole townhouse (common property) whereas in QLD when the walls of my townhouse transition from the areas facing the common driveway to the private garden they switch to a thin line (indicating lot property).

            So in QLD the walls facing my private garden are lot responsibility but the walls facing the common driveway are Strata responsibility (this only applies to cosmetic maintenance like painting anything structural is Strata responsibility).

            This is the bit that confuses me from your link:

            (2) Boundaries of all lots and part lots defined by continuous (i.e. unbroken) lines.
            (a) boundaries which are defined by a structure must be shown by thick lines

            (b) boundaries not defined by structures must be shown by thin lines

            Because these examples seem to have 2 boundaries one the structure and two the boundary enclosing the garden. How can a lot have 2 different boundaries?

            Are the gardens and courtyard in the examples considered common property or lot property

            13/07/2014 at 10:42 am #21927
            Whale
            Flatchatter

              Bluehouse – no you’re not being terribly pedantic (that’s usually my role Wink), but I think that you may be placing too much emphasis on what’s shown on the Strata Title Plan in the context of seeking your Owners Corporation’s consent to planned renovations to your Lot.

              Common areas of a Lot are by definition those that are shared with other Owners and with the Owners Corporation as if those were separate entities, and using my shoe box analogy that’s the perimeter sides, the bottom, and the lid.

              So anything that you may wish to do that could involve any of those areas needs to be discussed with, and in the case of Strata logically consented to by the Owners Corporation irrespective of what’s shown by the thickness or design of lines on a Plan.

              Remember also that renovations to a Lot may not just involve areas in common with others, but may also involve internal load bearing walls, environmental impacts such as vibration and noise, and related impacts such as the movement of contractors and their equipment / vehicles around the property.

              All the more reason why you and other Owners should simply provide details of whatever renovations may be proposed to your Executive Committee, and let them liaise with others including your Owners Corporation as a whole and facilitate the appropriate consent and any conditions.

              In the context of renovations anyway, don’t get to hung-up on interpreting the Strata Title Plan.

              13/07/2014 at 4:16 pm #21928
              bluehouse
              Flatchatter
              Chat-starter

                Thanks Whale

                Yeah.  I thought it was safe to assume that the walls that are physically common, or effect anyone else, are common, regardless of the line.

                The shoe box analogy is good – but in the case of 2 storey townhouses gets complicated because the floor between storeys is common, as is the stairs so its harder to imagine.

                Your suggestion about informing the EC or OC about any alterations regardless if they need approval or which kind of approval, seems to me to be only good neighbourly behaviour in the case that they don’t and the legal thing to do if they do.  But it seems that once things are mentioned at a meeting no one can decide what to do and tend to postpone a decision. So if one wants to continue being polite or legal one then needs to keep asking to have the matter on the next agenda and wait…a lot.

                I was hoping that a clear strata plan would be able to be used as a guide to which internal walls require OC approval to touch, and which not. I hadn’t considered your point that even things within the owners airspace could effect others because of noise, obstruction during works etc. But even if the question could be narrowed down to being about those issues (and not about what is common property) it would be a clarification and aid in helping get decisions made.

                But it is not to be.

                Which leads me to another question about how to decide what kind of approval is needed for different alterations.  But I will start another thread rather than branch off, so don’t answer here.

                15/07/2014 at 3:34 pm #21941
                bluehouse
                Flatchatter
                Chat-starter

                  Kiwipaul

                  I’m only referring to NSW as that is all I have read about.

                  My understanding is that continuous lines, whether thick or thin, on a Strata Floor plan represent some kind of boundary – not necessarily the boundary of the lot.

                  The boundaries will define the sides of a space, and a lot can consist of more than one space.  There will be information on the plan other than the lines which will tell you that.

                  I assume you are referring to the link https://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/__da….._Facts.pdf#sthash.6K3UyMBw.dpuf

                  In diagram 8, which is a floor plan in a Strata Plan, this information is indicated by 

                  • Each part is marked with the lot number it belongs to (“PT1”, “PT2” or nothing where it is common property)

                  • A vinculum (symbol like a stretched out “S”) across a wall that indicates both sides of the line form part of the lot property even though the wall in between is common property.

                  • On each part of the lot, there is an area measurement written in brackets. Under the measurement for the house area, there is a total area for the whole lot. So you can check you have noticed all the parts of the lot by making sure the total area matches the sum of the others.

                  There may also be notes on the plan that clarify the matter as well.

                  Not marked on the plan is Structural Cubic space inside your house/unit that is assumed to be common property unless otherwise specified.  We only know its there because that is the convention.  (more about structural cubic space here https://rgdirections.lpi.nsw.gov.au/faqs/strata_scheme/structural_cubic_space)

                  Diagram 7 is a Location plan.  Not all SP in NSW have them – I don’t know about QLD.  This plan is used to define the boundaries of the parcel belonging to the strata scheme, not boundaries of lots.  The lot boundaries are there, but you will note there are no measurement on them so they aren’t actually defining them.  

                  I hope this helps your understanding.

                • Author
                  Replies
                Viewing 6 replies - 1 through 6 (of 6 total)
                • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

                › Flat Chat Strata Forum › Common Property › Current Page