Flat Chat Strata Forum Living in strata Current Page

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  • #9237
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      High speed internet service providers are threatening legal action to force apartment block owners across Sydney to allow them to install their equipment and cable their buildings.

      Using the laws established to help the spread of mobile phone towers, hybrid copper, fibre and satellite  internet infrastructure providers are targeting high-rise buildings, employing a mixture of persuasion and implied threats of legal action.

      “Basically, they are writing to us telling us they are coming and ordering us to give them access to the roofs, telecommunications risers and distribution boards,” says the building manager of  several large Sydney unit blocks.

      “By law they only need to give us two days notice and all we can do is send them a lawyer’s letter to hold them off until we work out who has the best service for our residents,” he adds. “Admittedly some of them are providing top-of-the-line high speed broadband connection with additional satellite TV services.  Others are just offering the building manager a free broadband connection and that’s it.”

      Under the Telecommunications Act, service providers can issue a Land Access Activity Notice which allows them to inspect any land to see if it’s suitable for their purposes and then, if they wish, install “low-impact facilities” which is defined as anything smaller than a 6.8 metre mast or dish. The building’s owners can’t refuse and planning permission is not required.

      One company, FirstPath assures building managers and Owners Corporations that they are only seeking to inspect the building for suitability.  However, a pamphlet makes it clear that the buildings’ owners have little choice about that or, indeed, what happens next.

      “Ideally we would like to work with you however, the Act confers on carriers certain powers and responsibilities relating to the access of land and buildings for the purpose of inspecting, installing and maintaining telecommunications facilities. This entitles a carrier [FirstPath] to access any land to determine if it is suitable for its [FirstPath’s] purpose.”

      The pamphlet goes on to say: “The purpose may include: install, maintain and improve building connection equipment and or to improve the reliability, performance or maintenance of the network,” adding “if you do not agree to access we will serve a Land Access Activity Notice.”

      A rival company takes a less direct approach. OPENetworks has written to building managers explaining that the strata approval system is time-consuming and unreliable in terms of outcomes, so it is easier for them to issue an LAAN to make everything faster and easier.

      “The Strata Schemes Management Act … requires a prolonged and possibly costly action on behalf of the Owners Corporation and then may not be able to be done,” says Business Development Manager Lester Radford in a letter to the building manager of a Chatswood tower block.

      Though couched in different terms the message from both providers is clear – we are coming whether you like it or not.

      What’s at stake is the lucrative and growing market of apartment residents who want fast and cheap internet services, especially now that doubts are growing over the National Broadband Network, not least that its focus is on rural rather than urban customers.

      Hybrid internet wholesalers are offering speeds of up to 100 Megabits per second – a typical ADSL2 (copper line) speed is between 10 and 20 MBps – which they wholesale to internet service providers and it seems the companies are involved in a goldrush to grab the best buildings with the greatest potential.

      OPENetworks was recently reported to have installed services to 1200 apartments in Sydney and Melbourne and were at various stages of taking their services to 8000 units in 60 apartment blocks. TPG Telecom is reportedly planning to install fibre to buildings housing half a million apartments in the five mainland state capitals.

      But there’s still a little wriggle room for buildings that want to negotiate who provides a service to their building and under what terms.

      “While carriers might want to use powers under the Telecommunications Act to install their equipment, my recollection is that the Act doesn’t go so far as allowing them to use the OC’s electricity service,” says Richard Gration, Owners Corporation Network committee member and former chairman of the Horizon building in Sydney.  “The carrier would therefore have to make arrangements to install their own separately metered power for their equipment.

      “If you make it clear that they are not permitted to freeload off the OC’s electricity account and that they will have to pay for their own power connection and separate metering, that may discourage them a little from using this rather forceful approach to installation of telecommunications infrastructure.

      You can’t stop the providers coming in, but it may be worth slowing them down.

      “The law doesn’t allow you to favour one installer over another and theoretically all the providers can be installed in the one building,” says the building manager, “But the fact is that once one provider is there, there’s not much point in the others coming in.

      “That’s where smart Owners Corporations can get an advantage.  You can’t stop them coming but you can find out who’s offering the best deal and quietly give them the inside running.”

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
    Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 15 total)
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    • #20301
      g
      Flatchatter

        What rights does the OC have?

        – Do they have the right to insist on certain installation methods / locations, or to reserve space allocated for other use?

        – Do they have the right to insist on certain quality components (particularly aesthetics on fittings)?

        – What rights do they have to ensure that the installers clean up after the job? and recourse if they don’t?

        – What rights do they have to recover the expense of allowing access (including any supervision required, or people to be available to unlock doors – for the life of the installation)?

         

        I don’t see it as a huge issue if someone is installing something for nothing as long as it doesn’t degrade the appearance of the property, affect maintenance, or get in the way of future improvements. However it is a concern when you can’t go through the checks you would normally do on installers and exert your normal rights as far as installation practices. For example, I can’t stand exposed conduit and will go to extra lengths and expense to have all wiring hidden – do I keep the right to insist on these standards? (obviously I would want the expense to be theirs, not mine!)

        #20302
        g
        Flatchatter

          More information at https://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/aca_home/licensing/telcomm/app_form/accesing_buildings_install_tcomms_facilities.pdf

           

          Some notes…

           

          The carrier must…

          take all reasonable steps to make use of existing facilities for
          the activity

          So if you had already cabled for high speed networking back to a central location, you could force them to install their equipment there and connect to your cables (they would not be allowed to run additional cables). You could then have multiple providers where you can patch to each unit from the basement!

           

          You have some say in installation location for high speed broadband connections (not so for mobile phone towers).

          An in-building subscriber connection must be housed in an
          appropriate locality negotiated with the building owner

          You also get to supply a set of “building rules”. I would put anything about installation practices in here (although I’m not sure if they are binding).

           

          Some of the timeframes mentioned in this document are scarily short!

           

          Apparently they can access the equipment without notice if they need to to “maintain service”. Not sure if you are required to have someone “on-call” to let them in!

          #20317
          tharra
          Flatchatter

            One of the hassles we’ve had is with a sole provision clause in one license agreement presented to our EC. ECs/OCs beware! Suggest you read the fine print very carefully, lest you lock out more suitable providers down the track due to restrictive terms of existing contracts.

             

            Nice tip about the electricity use. Will remember that one.

             

             

             

            #20321
            FirstPath
            Flatchatter

              Hi all,

               

              I respectfully confirm that the quotations related to FirstPath are extracts from a limited amount of information we freely share with owners and developers, but may have been considered in an incomplete way or out of context. FirstPath is keen to accommodate enquiries and welcomes registration and customisation of each install (as practicable), our service capability exceed 10,000Mbps to each unit. Our installations are completed by very professional installers & if there is a need we restore, rectify any mess or damage at our cost.

               

              FirstPath is not “cherry picking” nor caught in a “gold rush” we have completed over 1,300 office towers in a contiguous build methodology from Chatswood via the city to Mascot and surrounds and are now building towards Parramatta and beyond. We have been delivering the highest quality services for years. This existing coverage has historically bypassed residential delivery and focused exclusively on business and government customers so that we could build the strongest and most resilient network possible. From December we will be commencing the delivery to the first 50 residential building so that we may understand and formulate a suitable approach to continue to expand residential coverage.

               

              To clarify some items: FirstPath is wholesale-only, provides equal access to access seeker, do not request exclusivity, do not lock you into contracts (unless you require). We are in effect an infrastructure provider and any qualifying ISP & or content provider may use our infrastructure to deliver services, this gives the owners and End Users limit less choice and possibilities. We will attend site meeting, agree on customised build and approach for each site, attend meetings and Executive Meetings to answer questions and seek amicable delivery outcomes.

               

              Our approach has and always will be consultative; we do ask owners and developers to consider and be mindful that your tenants have a right to access telecommunications services and that there are timelines for us to deliver those services. These time restrictions may result in us needing to escalate the access process when owners or management delay unreasonably.

               

              We will deliver services to small or large buildings and encourage registration on our web site, detailed coverage maps and availability will be available in December 2013.

               

              Kind Regards

              Stephen Carter

              Managing Director

              http://www.FirstPath.com.au

              #20327
              Ancestor
              Flatchatter

                There seems to be something missing in this story. How are wholesale installers of fibre optical cable equipment able to demand access to install their terminals in buildings in areas well ahead of the NBN rollout? The new interactive map on the NBN website makes clear for example, that the NBN cabling has not reached Chatswood (Sydney lower North Shore) and there is no timetable for it to do so. The only activity listed is for the new high-rise ERA tower block, where installation of the cable distribution within a brand new building equates to the cabling of greenfield housing developments. That is sensible. But the ERA cabling will not be connected to an NBN high speed broadband cable, as that backbone work has not yet reached the area!

                My understanding is that the new government’s review of the NBN scheme is not yet complete; its policy statements have indicated that it favours fibre to the node, not to the premises. This, I would have thought, would be a relief to owners’ corporations, giving them time to consider whether and when to make the final connection to the building, and how far the internal cabling would go. Until the new policy, and its costings are published, nobody can know for certain where the NBN cable will stop.

                Does this mean that wholesalers such as First Path are operating under the previous government’s regulations and its Act? How come they are working so far ahead of the NBN cabling backbone, and now, the policy of the new government? Are they “kicking down doors” as claimed, bullying owners corporations and building managers to do work which may not be wanted, and may not be legal when the new policies are announced? (Why are they attacking strata units and not private homes?) If these companies are taking advantage of the policy vacuum, every device should be used to frustrate their intentions – at least until the government announces its plans and amends the NBN Act.

                 

                #20329
                Cosmo
                Flatchatter

                  Hi Jimmy, in the opening posting on this thread it is stated:

                  “That’s where smart Owners Corporations can get an advantage.  You can’t stop them coming but you can find out who’s offering the best deal and quietly give them the inside running.” – See more at: http://www.flatchat.com.au/forum/another-day-in-paradise/broadband-providers-bashing-on-doors/#spPostForm

                  Where could an OC obtain details of providers so it could search out who is offering the best deal?

                  #20330
                  Jimmy-T
                  Keymaster
                  Chat-starter

                    @Cosmo said:

                    Where could an OC obtain details of providers so it could search out who is offering the best deal?

                    https://www.openetworks.com.au/

                    https://www.tpg.com.au/business/fibre-ethernet

                    https://www.firstpath.com.au/

                     

                    Also, the posting from Stephen Carter of Firstpath (below) is worth reading

                     

                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                    #20331
                    Jimmy-T
                    Keymaster
                    Chat-starter

                      @Ancestor said:
                      There seems to be something missing in this story. How are wholesale installers of fibre optical cable equipment able to demand access to install their terminals in buildings in areas well ahead of the NBN rollout?

                      There are hybrid systems of satellite, microwave and cable and have already been installed in offices.  My understanding is that they will be 10 times faster than ADSL2 but slower than the NBN.  How can they do it/ The legislation is there to allow them.

                      The new interactive map on the NBN website makes clear for example, that the NBN cabling has not reached Chatswood (Sydney lower North Shore) and there is no timetable for it to do so. The only activity listed is for the new high-rise ERA tower block, where installation of the cable distribution within a brand new building equates to the cabling of greenfield housing developments. That is sensible. But the ERA cabling will not be connected to an NBN high speed broadband cable, as that backbone work has not yet reached the area!

                      And that’s the opportunity that these providers are grabbing.  It could be years before our city centre see the NBN – if at all.  Regardless of the means of ‘selling’ the product, they make it a very tempting proposition.

                      Does this mean that wholesalers such as First Path are operating under the previous government’s regulations and its Act?

                      Yes.

                      How come they are working so far ahead of the NBN cabling backbone, and now, the policy of the new government? Are they “kicking down doors” as claimed, bullying owners corporations and building managers to do work which may not be wanted, and may not be legal when the new policies are announced?

                      They’re not exactly kicking down doors and they have already been cabling up office blocks.  Thet can do this because they are not part of the political bitch-slapping that the NBN has become. 

                      (Why are they attacking strata units and not private homes?)

                      Simple economics.  One connection to one building could mean dozens of customers. Oh, and one person’s ‘attack’ is another’s aggressive marketting.

                       

                       

                      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                      #21434
                      Anne at Surry Hills
                      Flatchatter

                        We have recently been approached by a broadband service provider and ‘told’ that they will be seeking an injunction to enter our property to install their broadband.  Our concern is that once one company installs their equipment we will be locking in the owners to that company.  I understand that another strata plan tried to resist and took them to court and lost their case.

                        What can we do to prevent their forced entry so we can make an informed choice about which supplier we want to go with?

                        #21435
                        Jimmy-T
                        Keymaster
                        Chat-starter

                          @Anne at Surry Hills said:
                          We have recently been approached by a broadband service provider and ‘told’ that they will be seeking an injunction to enter our property to install their broadband. What can we do to prevent their forced entry so we can make an informed choice about which supplier we want to go with?

                          Have a look at all the posts below (start from the bottom and work your way up) which will give you a clue as to how to proceed.  You can’t stop any single provider from accessing your building (under the laws that were enacted to ease the spread of mobile phone towers) but you can set conditions, charge them rental and make them pay for the use of your electricity.

                          First, get experienced strata lawyer to send them a letter saying that you are not denying them access but that there will be conditions that they will have to meet.  In the meantime, contact other providers (listed in a post below) and ask them what they are offering.  If you allow one of them in first, this bunch will go off and set up elsewhere.

                          You can’t stop them from coming in but you can make some choices that make this a positive experience for your owners and residents.

                          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                          #21439
                          tharra
                          Flatchatter

                            I highly recommend a read of this blog post by an industry expert:

                            https://blog.lindsaystrategic.com/2014/04/08/carrier-access-powers/

                             

                            #21451
                            Anne at Surry Hills
                            Flatchatter

                              JimmyT said

                              Have a look at all the posts below (start from the bottom and work your way up) which will give you a clue as to how to proceed.  You can’t stop any single provider from accessing your building (under the laws that were enacted to ease the spread of mobile phone towers) but you can set conditions, charge them rental and make them pay for the use of your electricity.

                              First, get experienced strata lawyer to send them a letter saying that you are not denying them access but that there will be conditions that they will have to meet.  In the meantime, contact other providers (listed in a post below) and ask them what they are offering.  If you allow one of them in first, this bunch will go off and set up elsewhere.

                              You can’t stop them from coming in but you can make some choices that make this a positive experience for your owners and residents.

                              Very helpful – thank youSmile

                               

                              #21454
                              FirstPath
                              Flatchatter

                                Hi all

                                [While] the below posts are true in some scenarios, sometimes in isolation, I am a director & co-founder of a licensed carrier “FirstPath carrier number 295”, and we have an interest in installing and delivering high speed broadband into residential buildings.

                                We believe that we have a track record of building good relationships with Owners Corporations [OC] while helping them facilitate improved services to the owners and occupiers.

                                In effect we offer a no cost upgrade to the base building services at no cost to the OC. Our offering only has upside for all. Equal open non-discrim access to all services, tenants and ISP’s etc.

                                This is a relatively complex and sometimes emotive topic that makes a text reply complex. I would like to personally offer to host anyone that would like to discuss in an open informal workshop/discussion format at our offies after hours in the Sydney CBD. We are not related to NBN co nor TPG but are rather a compliant competitive enablement proposition.

                                If you would like to attend such a workshop, please email info@FirstPath.com.au and we will gladly arrange.

                                Have a great weekend all.

                                Regards

                                Stephen Carter

                                Managing Director & co-founder

                                FirstPath P/L

                                Level 20

                                31 Market St, Sydney

                                #21870
                                tharra
                                Flatchatter

                                  An article of interest to those following this topic:

                                  “TPG Telecom’s plan to extend its fibre network to half a million of the nation’s most lucrative apartment blocks is hitting major hurdles as building managers, wary that the company could lock out competing broadband providers, begin blocking the company from installing its equipment….”

                                  (see next post #16 for a link to the article – Mod.)

                                  #21871
                                  tharra
                                  Flatchatter

                                    Here’s a non-paywalled version of the article referred to the previous post #15:

                                    https://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2014/7/7/technology/body-corporates-block-tpg-fibre-rollout

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