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19/02/2014 at 4:55 pm #9361
Who is in charge of changes?
At the AGM I requested the entrance doors and the door locks be maintained
The strata manager that chairs the AGM told me it was the wrong forum and I should address the EC
As I had prepared my question in writing for my benefit when I spoke I did hand it in for the following ECM
The strata manager that chairs the ECM after the AGM specifically stated that the locking feature was to be removed under maintenance.
The locks has now been removed on all the entrance doors to the building
We already have people sleeping in the stairwell and leave a mess and bad stains
When requesting cleaning I have been told to wait to next routine cleaning in the end of the week even as the last sleep over was on Saturday
Can the building safety be downgraded by removing the entrance doors locks without an owners resolution under maintenance.
Can any change to the property including features be done that downgrades the value of a lot without the lot owner’s approval?
Clearly I am wrong as that is what the strata manager has done
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20/02/2014 at 10:08 am #20998
You should have been able to bring the item up in General Business at your AGM or to any Exec Committee meeting. The only items that cannot be determined are items that require a vote and the item was not in the agenda prior to the meeting for owners to consider.
The EC is required to maintain the building to current standards and need to seek approval for any changes that are seen as major. If there is a maintenance reason that means removal of the locks I see that as reasonable if required to perform the maintenance. A good strata manager and EC will notify owners and tenants however so there are no surprises.
Why don’t you try to get on the EC at the next AGM?
20/02/2014 at 10:18 am #20999leif – I’ve been reading your posts and waiting for somebody more informed than me to advise you about the rules surrounding the operation of fire doors / stairs.
So far as I’m aware though, the doors on each level should be locked on the inside so that residents there can enter the stairway, and doors at ground /street level should be locked on the outside to prevent unauthorised access.
Depending upon your building’s construction date, the specific requirements for fire safety would be shown on the Fire Safety Schedule that’s provided by Council concurrently with a Certificate of Occupancy.
In answer to your question about “who is in charge of changes”, those undertaken on the fire doors can only be determined by way of a Special Resolution at a General Meeting, where ≥75% of those in attendance must be in favour in order for the change or alteration to occur.
So your Strata Manager’s advice was incorrect, in that your AGM was the correct forum for a decision to be made (or rejected) about removing the locks on the building’s fire doors, and furthermore, I believe that the actions now undertaken would be contrary to the rules surrounding the operation of fire doors / stairs.
How to handle this depends in part upon whether you submitted a Motion that was included on the Agenda for the AGM, so could you please advise.
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PS – Stratafied’s post arrived as I was typing this, and it should be noted that there can be no “general business” on the Agenda of General Meetings; hence my question about a Motion.
20/02/2014 at 12:23 pm #20997
@Whale said:
PS – Stratafied’s post arrived as I was typing this, and it should be noted that there can be no “general business” on the Agenda of General Meetings; hence my question about a Motion.I thought General Business could be used to discuss issues but that no vote is permitted (or, at least valid) unless the specific item was on the agenda. Given that the AGM is the time when most owners are all together, it would seem unfortunate to limit discussion, even if you can’t legitimately vote on what you discuss. Having said that, the chairman could introduce an informal discussion at the end of the meeting proper – there would be no harm in that.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
20/02/2014 at 12:53 pm #21000Yes you’re right Jimmy….. I was just being my pedantic self by advising that as “general business” can’t be on the Agenda for the Meeting, and as leif said that he had prepared his question about the fire door locks in writing, I wondered whether he’d actually submitted that for inclusion on the Agenda where a resolution should be minuted and be possibly open to Mediation, or if he’d just been fobbed-off in un-minuted post-meeting discussions.
I also notice that the locks were “removed under maintenance”, which to me implies that they’d be subsequently reinstalled as opposed to being permanently removed.
Anyway, with bated breath…………..
20/02/2014 at 2:04 pm #21001We always have General Business as an agenda item. I did clarify that it could not be voted on unless it was a specific item already raised. I thought that was fairly clear. An AGM where no one could raise general business would be fairly worthless. Often many owners never have input with the exception of the AGM.
Again if it is a matter of removing locks for maintenance then there are no rules. As far as fire requirements then having no locks would not be against the law. This discussion confuses the situation. As long as the door is auto-closing to prevent it staying opening and facilitating fire travelling then it is compliant. Was the OP discussing fire or security? If it is security then that is a building matter. If the locks prevent people from exiting then it is another matter. I know of buildings that have a self-closing, non-lockable door only and they are fire certified. If the OP is talking about security we should keep to that unless the fire requirements are impacted by the changes.
20/02/2014 at 4:19 pm #21002Stratafied – point taken, but as the topic is “building security” I thought that leif‘s angle was that the Strata Manager’s decision to remove the existing locks on the doors to the fire stairs including on the outside of those at street level, thereby permitting access to people who were now sleeping in the fire stairs, had compromised that (building security).
Far from confusing the situation, I thought that the legality of the Strata Manager’s decision to, as it appears, make permanent changes to the common property (locks) on those fire doors and possibly breach the building’s Fire Safety Schedule (as opposed to the rating of the doors themselves) in the absence of a Special Resolution by the O/C was germane to the discussion.
But then I could be wrong – so let’s wait for leif‘s clarification!
20/02/2014 at 7:22 pm #21003Our building has fire stair door locks that allow access to the stairs from the lobbies and thence to the street – but not the other way round. However, if a fire alarm goes off, the locks all open, allowing access from the stairwell to other lobbies, if required (but I think not from the street to the stairwell).
In any case, I agree that the removal of locks is something that requires approval at a general meeting. The fundamental security – and by that I also mean physical safety – of the building has been altered and all owners were entitled to discuss it and decide what they wanted to do.
Having people sleeping in stairwells reduces the ability of everyone to get out of a building quickly and safely. And, of course, none of this really matters … until it does. And then it’s a matter of life and death.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
20/02/2014 at 7:59 pm #21004Firstly thanks for all replies
Sorry about the length but to clarify all questions
As it was a request for maintenance of broken items I did only raise it at the AGM as I thought it was only information that should be investigated and followed by properly maintained and did not expect any vote.
It is correct there is no item on the agenda for owners to say anything but I thought the simple advice of broken items should be minuted but was totally rejected and not minuted and no records even of the advice to address the EC
My written request was handed to the ECM before the meeting that is held directly after the AGM and accordingly was not on the agenda but made it into the minutes
Under other maters but no reference to my written request to have the locks maintained and my security concerns including that most entrance lights are not working globes removed and not replaced
Front entrance doors
Resolved that the strata manager arrange for tradesman to check that all 3 front entrance doors latch but do not lock
Consequently the locks where removed / replaced with non-locking fittings and not maintained
I know they (ECM) are saying as the locks where already faulty removing them is not downgrading security I did make a written request to the EC about a year ago and was advised security is an owner’s responsibility but did the second request to the strata manager at the AGM as I thought the EC was out of its …..
Under pretention of fire safety all entrance doors and corridor dors has had the locks removed not even considered for one way and again without any owner’s resolution. The building has 5 external doors and have an additional two corridors between the three stairwells that was originally locked in all directions and now the final locks has been removed on the front entrance doors in summary nine door locks has now been removed and several break and enter has occurred and the last sleeping in the stairwell was last Saturday.
I see solutions of special resolution but I thought any change that downgrades the value and I thought removal of security does just that and would require a unanimous resolution.
The EC has verbally indicated one reason the locks are not maintained is the then required intercom is to expensive
As there was no indication that the EC was informed by the strata manager of my request I e-mailed my request to all ECM but no mentioning in the following ECM Agenda only under business arising from minutes. The three front doors has been attended to
But in the minutes it made it under correspondence. Correspondence via E-mail received from owner of unit 20 regarding personal request for overdue maintenance and defects all points raised in the letter were discussed and actioned where required
Again no mentioning of the request or the actions taken
For info here is my written request hand given to the strata manager and then e-mailed to all EC
Please repair the following broken items without delay as it severely affects my family’s security and safety.
• Light bulbs missing in the entrance area
• Garden light not working in the entrance path to the building some removed without owners approval
• Front entrance doors no longer closing (reference: written request to ECM November 2011)
• Front entrance doors all locks in operational or removed without owners approval (reference: written request to ECM November 2011)
• Outside lights turned off after midnight with no physical means of turning on (reference: written request to ECM May 2011)
All items still to this day not actioned
Finally on the question of joining the EC the strata manager stated he would resign if I was elected hens not elected and he arranged that by stating it was agreed to have one member less than nominated hence only five were elected.
Regarding fire safety is only residential and registered 1971
But the council is making noise but no information has been passed down to the owners and as always not on the publish agenda as anything other than info distributed separately to the EC
20/02/2014 at 9:42 pm #21005Not knowing what else seems to have been happening it seems as if you’ve made the right moves. The strata manager’s reaction seems extreme and somewhat unprofessional have you had a few more falling outs with her/ him? It’s a shame you did not get support from the other owners.
Firstly re fire I can’t see any issues here unless what has been done does not meet code. As I said before no locks are required to meet fire codes.
Locks, if these were not replaced with like then you have an issue with the strata manager and EC. They are required to maintain and should not be making material changes without permission from the owners. You can formally request they replace them and if they fail to do so you can request mediation. If this is not successful you can seek an order from your state-based tribunal.
With regard to passing a maintenance request to an ECM I can understand that could be normal practice but it would not have hurt to add it to general business. However it is obviously a larger issue now and deserves greater discussion. You can formally request it be added to the next ECM and also attend. You can ask to be part of the discussion but the EC doesn’t need to agree. At least the matter must be formally discussed and minuted. Depending on the size of your building this may need to be sent out to all owners or at the very least must be posted on the notice board.
Good do luck with your security issues. Be careful of the fire issue doesn’t take you down a rabbit hole.
21/02/2014 at 4:42 pm #21007leif – with regard to all maintenance items that you’ve written to the Strata Manager about, you need to follow-up in writing to advise that under Sect 62 of the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act the Owners Corporation (O/C) has an absolute responsibility to property maintain the Common Property (door locks, garden lights), and that if they don’t do that within 14 days you’ll be lodging an Application for Adjudication Orders to the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal (NCAT) in an effort to compel them to do so.
Neither the Strata Manager nor the Executive Committee can authorise changes to the Common Property, and whilst I doubt that a swapping door locking mechanisms from key lockable to latching only would constitute a “change”, the removal of door locks altogether IS a matter that can only be decided by the O/C at a General Meeting, where ≥75% (not 100%) of those in attendance would need to agree.
I believe that the matter of the fire doors and stairs is relevant, not only to the security of the building but also to the correct operation of the emergency fire exit system, where as your building was constructed in 1971 the requirements of Ordinance 70 of the NSW Local Government Act (1919) would have required all the fire doors to be self-closing and latched (not locked) to exclude draughts, and for the O/C to do whatever is necessary to ensure that the stairs are kept unobstructed.
Clearly, the consequences of the changes that the Strata Manager has (improperly) arranged to the fire doors could permit a draught to be created within the stairwell thereby allowing any fire to more easily spread to/between individual levels, and allow the people who now gain access to “camp” there and obstruct safe passage – and as Jimmy pointed none of that will matter to anyone until there’s a fire that spreads more quickly due to open fire doors and fleeing residents’ access is obstructed.
I’m loathe to suggest that you involve Council, but as you’ve apparently made an approach already, I think you need to follow that up in writing to request that their Officers undertake an inspection of the fire stairs and the entry / egress doors to access compliance with whatever standards applied at the time that the building’s original Certificate of Occupancy was issued, and to convey that information to the O/C in the form of a Fire Safety Order.
As an Owner, compliance with any Council Order will cost you also (via your Levy Contributions), but I guess that’s the price of safety and security!
21/02/2014 at 8:03 pm #21009Whale you refer to special resolution
The Strata Schemes Managing Act is clear in the duties of maintenance?
62 What are the duties of an owners corporation to maintain and repair property?
(1) An owners corporation must properly maintain and keep in a state of good and serviceable repair the common property and any personal property vested in the owners corporation.
(2) An owners corporation must renew or replace any fixtures or fittings comprised in the common property and any personal property vested in the owners corporation.
(3) This clause does not apply to a particular item of property if the owners corporation determines by special resolution that:
(a) it is inappropriate to maintain, renew, replace or repair the property, and
(b) its decision will not affect the safety of any building, structure or common property in the strata scheme or detract from the appearance of any property in the strata scheme.
The NSW laws does not allow the majority to steal from the minority (not yet until the new proposed Strata Acts are implemented where a special resolution will allow a forced sale on the minority)
Clearly anything is possible under a unanimous resolution if implemented correctly and all owners are told abstaining from voting is the same as agreeing as only the no votes are counted after one vote in favour.
A quorum is required to vote but it is not compulsory to vote.
The question is how section 62 reads especially (3)
What is determined by a special resolution?
(a) it is inappropriate to maintain, renew, replace or repair the property
Well so far all agree but the next bit is read two different ways
First
The special resolution decides
(b) its decision will not affect the safety of any building, structure or common property in the strata scheme or detract from the appearance of any property in the strata scheme.
Second
The special resolution can only be done if
(b) its decision will not affect the safety of any building, structure or common property in the strata scheme or detract from the appearance of any property in the strata scheme.
I seem to be the only one supporting the second option and if (observe the strike out)
(b) its decision will not affect the safety of any building, structure or common property in the strata scheme or detract from the appearance of any property in the strata scheme.
It requires a unanimous resolution
If the first reading is right there would be no need for an arbitrator.
As an arbitrator can only have an opinion that the decision did affect the safety of any building, structure or common property in the strata scheme or did detract from the appearance of any property in the strata scheme.
22/02/2014 at 9:26 am #21013leif – I think one of us is confusing what’s prescribed under Sect 62 with what it is that your O/C and Strata Manager have decided to do, or more correctly not to do.
As I understood your posts, the O/C didn’t Specially Resolve anything to do with changing, altering, or not maintaining the Common Property; they’ve just decided on a course of action, at best by a simple majority vote at an E/C Meeting, and then implemented it!
So as a Special Resolution was not taken at the General Meeting and it should have been, you have the option to seek the assistance of the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal (NCAT) to require your O/C to either convene another General Meeting to put a Special Resolution to the vote in order to alter, change, and/or not to maintain certain items of its Common Property (locks, lights etc) or to get on with properly maintaining that Common Property in accordance with Sect 62(1).
A Special Resolution does not require a unanimous vote to pass.
Similarly, if your O/C then succeeds in passing a Special Resolution to not maintain certain items of its Common Property and that decision would affect the safety of the building, then you can again seek the assistance of the NCAT to overturn that decision under Sect 62(3b).
As for the NCAT process, yes you’re correct in your conclusion that an arbitrator would need to be convinced that any decision of your O/C not to maintain its Common Property had an affect the safety of the building, but then from what you’ve described in your posts that shouldn’t be too difficult for you to prove.
I think you need to get on with it – you never know, the Strata Manager and E/C may concede as soon as they receive your written request for the Common Property to be properly maintained, and you may not need the assistance of the NCAT at all .
22/02/2014 at 3:08 pm #21018Whale sorry about the confusion
I 100% agree with you on all issues bar one
You have given clear indication of the required rules that the EC should but did not follow THANKS
The next step is one that confuses me and clearly you are confused as to why I am confused.
I did believe that anything that had a downgrading effect of the value of my unit required my approval.
Hence the three different resolutions in simplicity
Majority Resolution (Neutral Change)
Special Resolution (Positive Change)
Unanimous Resolution (Negative Change)
But your replay was a special resolution can remove / change
Remove 90% of entrance lights
Remove 90% of garden lights
Remove 100% of lockable front foyer entrance doors (3)
Remove 100% of lockable rear entrance doors (6)
Remove 100% of the sound blocking features between the building and the highway
Turn off the external light at midnight with no means of turning on if wanted / required
The simple question was is there anything that cannot be removed under a special resolution
I thought all of the above has a negative impact of the value of my lot and would have required a unanimous resolution.
The only ones attending our AGM is the executive committee plus their friend’s proxies hence the outcome of an AGM will not change anything the EC has done.
This means a majority (special resolution) can remove all the features I purchased the unit for SECURITY and PRIVACY.
This is then clear there is nothing achievable by insisting the rules are adhered to and further actions are a waste of every body’s time as the end result will not be changed and all safety features will remain removed.
As the building now has changed to below my security standard and has lost value I now have to sell at a reduced profit.
I am not arguing about you being right I just refuse to believe I have lost so much value so quickly and so simply.
23/02/2014 at 10:27 pm #21023leif – the O/C of which you’re a part by the way, CAN decide to remove the sound-blocking feature, and even to not maintain something at all provided ≥75% of those owners who bother to attend an AGM vote to do so, but ONLY if that doesn’t affect the security of the building, the structure of the building, the appearance of the building, or the appearance (and possibly therefore the value) of any Unit within it.
So NO, I’m afraid that a properly made decision to do that doesn’t require your approval, BUT you can have your say and vote (against) at the AGM, and seek the assistance of the NCAT to overturn any decision that wasn’t properly made (i.e. by Special Resolution) and to ensure that items of Common Property like the entrance lights, garden lights, and door locks are properly maintained.
It’s a pity that there apparently aren’t enough Owners who feel as you do, and who are prepared to either attend the AGM or to give you their vote by proxy so that the votes of your Committee and their friends can be overcome. That’s not unusual though, and more’s the pity.
I don’t know how you can think that nothing can be achieved by insisting that the rules are adhered to and that further actions are a waste of every body’s time when you haven’t as yet tried what I and others have suggested!
You still have a couple of choices:
1) Write to your Strata Manager and E/C Secretary to demand that they comply with Sect 62(1) and (2) of the SCMA by properly maintaining items such as the lighting and door locks, and to advise them that if they don’t do so, then you’ll be seeking the assistance of the NCAT to ensure that they do, and;
that if they decided to not maintain anything that affects the security of the building, then you’ll also ask the NCAT to overturn that decision as it breaches Sect 62(3)(b)
OR
2) sell your Unit at a reduced profit and let somebody else worry about all this.
Sorry, but this topic has just about been flogged to death in my opinion, and I don’t think that I for one can assist you any further; good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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