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Hi all, i am hoping for some advice. this sounds like a soap opera though… i recently had to approach my neighbour (who i have previously never spoken to) about her 11-year old son verbally abusing my 3-year old son and trying to physically assault him before my 12-year old niece intervened. they were playing on a common property play area. upon asking for this woman to stop her son from doing this i was verbally attacked, sworn at etc and the abuse was then directed at my niece simply because she had the misfortune of standing beside me.
Later that evening, we were walking some friends out of the complex and another new neighbour who we also don’t know starting hurling unprovoked abuse at us because we “complained about her friends son”. she also commented that miserable people who complain about children should be kicked out. this left my niece particularly shaken and later that evening her and some other kids in the strata wrote some nasty letters as all the children dislike both of these households as the children and mothers are well-known bullies, appparently (but i am the only owner not too scared of them to complain). i do not know the content of the letters but the two neighbours complained. i now have a letter complaining that i have breached a by-law in regards to bad behaviuor. i called the SM who said he couldn’t explain what i did wrong only that another “owner” complained. the two other households are tenants.
I am happy to take responsibility for my neices poor judgment but as a child can we get a breach of by-law notice?
Under the circumstances and given that my nieces behaviuor was a direct reaction to being abused by two separate adults for no reason, should this be overlooked?
Also, this all started from me simply asking for abuse of a 3-year old to stop. surely my family are the victims here.
should i dispute this letter? what is the SM required to provide me in terms of what evidence they have of my bad behaviour. why do i not get to defend myself? should i demand that the other two households also get letters and can i demand to see proof of this? finally, as tenants should these other two people not have gone via their managing agents to complain, not directly to the owners corporation? would that make their complaints void?
i’d appreciate any help here,
Thanks,
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Rebekah – I don’t understand how it is that your twelve year-old niece could write letters to other residents without your knowledge of that, or of the letter’s content.
Be that as it may, as your niece is a minor her actions on this occasion were your responsibility, and that is why the Strata Manager has sent you a letter about the incident, presumably at the request of those other residents whose children were the recipients of your niece’s letter/s.
It is unusual for a Strata Manager to react to complaints made directly by tenants, and whilst you’re only assuming that to be the case, if you’re in NSW then the document you’ve received has no consequences as it’s merely a letter (of complaint) as opposed to a Notice-to-Comply with a specific By-Law issued in THIS format under the provisions of the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act after a Meeting of the Executive Committee so determines.
So if you’re greatly offended by the Strata Manager’s letter, then by all means respond, but personally as that letter carries no consequences to you or to your niece, I’d just tell her to in future act more responsibly (instead of as the neighbours do), and then suck it up and move on.
Hi Whale,
I am unsure of your advice with this one, as it simply doesn’t seem to be a strata issue to me.
If the strata manager has written a notice to comply… He / she must be watching Judge Judy or some other tripe on the TV to have issued this without hearing ‘both sides’ of the story… Besides, it may be a police issue and the strata manager has just stepped over the line (unreasonably biased).
I wouldn’t call this strata managers conduct unusual… I’d call it outright petty and possibly even bitchy… but fundamentally unhelpful as it can only be considered inflammatory (as proven by this thread)!
It seems the issue has been elevated to the point were parents are using their kids to harass other owners… and that is nothing short of disgraceful. Either way, if parents don’t get one with each other it’s simply the kids who will suffer!
Rebekah,
I’d insist the strata manager forward you a copy the written complaints to assess for yourself, together with the agenda, motions and resolutions passed that resulted in the issuing of a notice to comply.
Then, once you have the full documented facts in front of you, I’d calmly consider how best to resolve your differences with the other two neighbours with the goal to start acting reasonable towards each other.
Do this before ANY of the kids start to suffer for what appears to be a petty dispute.
As for the Strata Manager, instruct them that you will personally hold them fully responsible for any ‘fallout’ as a result of their unprofessional conduct!
What a mess, if it seems like it cannot be resolved and you only rent, consider moving somewhere less ‘lord of the flies’ but don’t inflame tensions with your neighbours until at least you can assess their complaints for yourself.
Its worth considering that kids do tend to ’embellish’ when reporting back to their parents and while I’m not taking sides on this one, that’s usually a good ‘excuse’ to help defuse an otherwise silly situation… who knows!?!
No matter who’s at fault, it might be more productive to simply apologise for kids being kids.
Remember, strata living is not suppose to be a prison or school yard… but a ‘community’ environment were we are suppose to look out for each other, not act as bully. I have a niece who committed suicide over bullying, so I hope you can all patch things up well before it goes too far… or you’ll all regret it!
Thom
Thom – whilst I can see where you’re coming from, Rebekah’s reference to a soap opera and your Judge Judy analogy may both be good descriptors of what will likely be the consequence of her pursuing your suggested evidence gathering approach (my interpretation) with her Strata Manager.
Rebekah is an Owner, and we still don’t know if she received a warning letter or a Notice to Comply or if in the latter case the correct procedures for issuing that were followed, but subject to any further information that she may yet provide, I do agree with your suggestion that “it might be more productive to simply apologise (or at least be apologetic) for kids being kids” and to move on.
@rebekah20p said:
should i dispute this letter? what is the SM required to provide me in terms of what evidence they have of my bad behaviour. why do i not get to defend myself? should i demand that the other two households also get letters and can i demand to see proof of this? finally, as tenants should these other two people not have gone via their managing agents to complain, not directly to the owners corporation? would that make their complaints void?
At the risk of repeating some of the advice already given here, we need to know if it was an official Notice To Comply? If not, by all means reply to the letter but otherwise you can just ignore it.
Tenants are entitled to the same rights and subject to the same rules as anyone else in the scheme (apart from voting at strata meetings), but if they are serial nuisances, and they are in breach of by-laws, then they are also in breach of their rental agreements.
Seriously, though, the sooner this blows over, the better. The more people take positions on issues like this, the more likely things are to get worse before they get better.
However, if a child is frequently acting anti-socially on common property then that comes under the by-laws about behaviour and if it’s causing problems for other kids, it should be brought to the attention of the strata manager
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
Hi Whale,
I wouldn’t want Rebekah inflaming the situation with other owners, which is why I suggested she seek copies of the complaints direct from the Strata Manager to assess… But in my experience with Strata Managers, they usually do this sort of thing on the whim, without having the facts first!
The strata manager could have worsened the situation without a care in the world, because they don’t live there, and it’s really the executive who should decide what is appropriate conduct for the good of all owners.
I might be wrong here, but my experience with strata managers is they want to appear like they’re doing something and don’t give a damn about the consequences. I was threatened by my strata manager, and when they forwarded me the ‘evidence’ it wasn’t even me they were talking about!!!
Anyhow, good luck Rebekah and hopefully it all works out for you and your neighbours… “Everybody needs good friends, that’s why good neighbours… become good friends!” Couldn’t resist 🙂
Thom – the strata manager has no obligations to just ‘pass on any complaint letters or info’ regardless of Rebekah’s ‘demands’. Rebekah would have to write to the strata manager requesting to inspect the records of the owners corporation. This would incur a fee of $31 for the first hour, however then Rebekah can seek any information the strata manager has in their possession, which should include any written correspondence between the complainer and the strata manager.
As per Whales advice, this is a strata matter. Tenants do have the right to complain directly to the strata manager, there is nothing in the Strata laws preventing this. Tenants are seen as ‘occupiers’ and have equal rights and obligations when it comes to abiding by the by-laws of the scheme. So the answer is NO, the tenants complaint is not invalid, its as valid an any owner making a complaint.
However regardless of whether you have been served an official ‘notice to comply’ or just a general warning letter, you need to think twice before escalating it, it may not be worth it. There is no need to ‘defend’ yourself, just move on is the best option in many cases.
Hi Stevecro / Rebekah,
This sounds like it’s more of a police issue now from your last email. It’s probably easier to call into your local station and ask them their opinion or options for your safety.
Everything you have said (last post) amounts to criminal behaviour, and with all due respect, the strata manager has a lot to answer for!
Maybe Whale could advise you legally, but I would ask the Strata Manager to provide a ‘legal basis’ for the allegations made in their original notice / letter to you, before you take any further / legal action.
They may wish to provide you with the original complaint letters without a sect 108 search, but fundamentally they will need to provide a written response with reasons as to why the letter was drafted by them, and if it was on behalf of your owners corporation in the first place!
Whilst I understand the SM has no obligation per say, they wouldn’t want to be held personally accountable or liable should anything bad happen to you or your family as a result of their poor actions. Put them on notice at least, that way you acknowlegde their actions in promoting, or in this case lack of action in curbing the nuisance inflicted on you and your guests by other residents within the scheme.
Either way, I’m a lot less forgiving than everyone on here by the sounds of it, due to my experience with shitty strata managers, but this is not good at all.
Stay strong, whatever you decide to do, remember that ‘your safety’ is much more important, so protect yours as best you can, and by whatever means necessary.
Thom
@rebekah20p said:
The EC have told me to contact the tenants managing agent (it think this is inappropriate) and continue with the police. Everywhere i turn for help i get directed elsewhere. Where does the buck really stop. Is it the EC?Why is approaching the rental agent inappropriate? Landlords have a legal responsibility to moderate the behaviour of their tenants and, if there is a proven breach of by-laws, then that is a breach of their rental agreement and they can be evicted.
I’m not saying that is something you should pursue as a first option but it’s one hell of a deterrent against future bad behaviour.
So what are your options? In your position, I’m assuming that the neighbours are not listening to you and you have evidence of, or credible witnesses to their bad behaviour.
You could ask your EC to set up a mediation – Community Justice Centres will do this for free – at which everybody gets to air their grievances and move on before it all gets out of hand. Participation is not compulsory but refusal to take part won’t look good for your neighbours if the conflict is escalated.
The Police are right in so far as this can get very ugly very quickly if you pursue AVOs. So if private mediation doesn’t work, I would ask the EC and/or the strata manager to issue a properly formulated Notice To Comply based on known or provable breaches of the by-laws.
These include behaviour of residents and their guests on common property and the right to peaceful enjoyment of your lot. The Notice to Comply must list the by-laws breached – and I’m taking a wild guess here but that might be the first time your neighbours have even seen them or been aware that they have to abide by them.
NB: A notice to comply is a warning, not a fine. It says stop breaching by-laws or you might be fined. No prior warnings are required and failure to comply can lead to substantial fines.
I would ask the EC/strata manager to back this up with a letter to the tenants, copied to the letting agent, explaining that a breach of by-laws is a breach of their rental agreement and they will expect any further breaches to result in action under terms of the Residential Tenancies Act.
I would ask the SM/EC to also send a letter to the Rental Agent, copied to the tenant, saying there had been complaints about the tenants and that the landlord has a responsibility under the Act to do something about this, either by asking the tenants to respect the by-laws or by evicting them if they fail to do so, under the terms of their Residential Tenancy contract.
Failure to act could lead to orders at the Tribunal (NCAT) and fines of up to $5500 per offence.
As for evidence, hearsay and suspicions are not enough. You need witnesses who are prepared to sign statutory declarations and speak to them at a tribunal, if need be.
Verbal abuse is a form of assault and getting evidence couldn’t be simpler. Your smartphone will have a recording option on it. When you are approached by these people, take out your phone, switch on record and say in a loud voice “[Neighbour’s name], I am recording everything you say and will do so whenever we meet.”
I would put money on them saying that you can’t record them without their permission. This is a myth. You don’t need verbal or written permission from people to record their voices, just their awareness that you are doing so. It is up to them whether or not they keep talking after that.
Whatever you record them saying will then be admissible evidence with the police, courts and the Tribunal. In reality, it will probably stop the abuse and make them realise that you aren’t to be messed around with.
As for the buck being passed around, breaches of by-laws are the province of the EC and breaches of the law are a police concern.
I would start with the EC and tell them that doing nothing is not an option – they have a duty of care and if they won’t live up to it, you will take them to the Tribunal, under section 138 “failure to exercise a function conferred or imposed by or under this Act or the by-laws in relation to a strata scheme.”
Again, if they are smart, they will at least try to arrange a mediation. However, tread lightly – you don’t want to end up forcing your potential allies (the EC) to line up with your neighbours against you.
Also, ask your EC to install security cameras at your mailboxes, to deter current and future miscreants.
Finally, before anyone gets on their high horse about my victimising tenants, my preferred option is for mediation, for everyone to sort it out and move on.
However, I think it’s entirely appropriate to warn tenants that breaching by-laws has serious consequences. Why would anyone support bad behaviour by any resident?
It’s too bad for serially abusive tenants that they could lose their homes for behaving badly. But strata communities require mutual consideration and respect. I just wish the same sanctions were available for use against serially abusive owners.
The simple fact is that some people shouldn’t live in strata and that’s pretty much all there is to it. We shouldn’t lower our standards because they aren’t prepared to raise theirs.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
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