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  • #8139
    edc
    Flatchatter

      For a few years we own a unit (in an apartment block), and the unit has got a very large verandah (250 sq meters), being on the lowest residential floor of the building. Below us there are offices and parking garage (our floor is about 5m above the street level). All was OK until a few months ago, when a new residential building has been erected very close across the street (literally 15m or less) from the outside wall of our verandah. It is just so frustrating, we now completely lack any privacy (is so close you can actually hear the builders / workers fa*t or talking on their mobile phones from across the street!); plus it has considerably taken away any winter sun and also changed significantly the wind patterns into worse!

      Anyhow, we came up with a viable solution: we would like to errect one or more pergolas on our verandah (just to be clear, this is our property, not common use by all the residents), so we can achieve privacy, minimise the wind guts (now it can almost lift 150Kg heavy plant pots like they are feathers(!), anyhow most of our expensive ceramic pots are now broken because of the strong wind guts pushing them down), and also protect ourselves in summer against the sun and mosquitos, ie to be able to get some reasonable use of the huge verandah, use that we haven’t been able to get until now.

      One would have thought this should be easy, given that it will also improve the aesthetic appeal of the building (right now people on the upper levels are looking at a bare, desolating brick pavement, full of mould, etc): well, here is the story, we met with a significant amount of obstacles, from various sources:

      1. We went to the Council and inquired what we need to erect a pergola: the local Town Planner indicated that, given the concept design we have shown, and because is more than 1m above the street level, we will need a DA submission to the Council, and in order to be able to do that, we need ExCo approval, and a whole lot of drawings, etc; this was confirmed on two separate occasions, as after the first meeting I adjusted the concept design based on the Town Planner’s feedback, so I went the second time with the new concept design and asked the same question again);

      2. I asked for the ExCo approval (I am actually the Secretary of the ExCo, so is a more delicate matter for the ExCo), and explained what the Town Planner told me, and presented in detail the concept design, examples of pergolas, examples of materials used, etc; I got rejected on grounds that I do not have enough info on materials, design, structural details, construction standards, etc. I explained that approval from the Council is bound by all these, that I do not have all these at this moment, but if I get the ExCo approval, than I can embark into spending the money and getting and architect, builder, structural engineer (lots of money!) to prepare everything for the Council, as the Council will never approve my DA without all the t’s crossed, etc.

      3. I went one step further, I actually got an architect to prepare some drawings, got a builder to come and give me a quote, done extensive research on-line to identify a nice pergola design, got the applicable materials and construction standards, etc, the “whole nine-yards”, and went back to the ExCo and presented all these => I got the approval to proceed to Council Approval! Out of 5 in the Committee, we were 3 at that meeting: the Chairman, a neighbour who is a former solicitor, and myself. From past discussions, it is clear that the former solicitor is quite envious that I have so much space and now I am looking to change that so I can actually use it, etc.

      4. I write and send out the Minutes of that ExCo meetings, and here is what I got back as comments to the minutes, with the request to change the text of the Minutes according to her email:

      – the lady who was a former solicitor: “We (nb, the ExCo) gave our support to the making of an application to Waverley Council for approval for a pergola for Unit XXX, tacit or otherwise…”; this was fine with me, I started to adjust the Minutes, when:

      – 2 hours later, from the same, stating that she thought better about what she wrote in the first email, and this is actually what she wanted to say: “… accordingly gave our support to the concept of a development application to Waverley Council. At the time I reiterated that legal advice should be obtained as to whether the matter would also have to go to a general meeting of the Owners’ Corporation. On receipt of that advice, we should be able to progress the matter further.”

      – another half an hour, and got a message from the Strata Manager stating that a bylaw is required; I answered back to that indicating that the Council Town Planner advised me that this, “being just a pergola”, requires only ExCo approval, and possibly an OK from my neighbour next door (sun-shading issues); he answered back stating that the Town Planner is wrong (!);

      – half an hour later and the lady switched completely saying that “I accept the advice of today’s date of our Strata manager, “Joe Blog”; that a pergola requires a by-law. Strata law applies to strata buildings; planning law is applied to and by councils. These are separate legal regimes.
      If you wish to progress the matter further, I suggest it is appropriate that it be placed on an agenda for discussion at an Executive Committee meeting”.

      The Chairman is happy with the initial decision, and he continues to support my application.

      Leaving aside the fact that this looks like a bad ping-pong game, and from an initial approval it changed into a rejection, I need to understand who is right and who is wrong.

      Is a Bylaw required? in my application to the ExCo I already stated in writing that all the associated expenses, such as maintenance, repairs of any damage to the common property, insurance, etc will be entirely my responsibility, and I will use only builders / engineers with appropriate certifications and building insurance (at least $20Mil), they will work to minimise any disturbance to the building and neighbours, we will place all the materials straight from the street onto the verandah (with a crane), so as not to use the common areas for transporting construction materials, etc.

      Lastly, I know that the legislation has changed in 2009 to reduce the burden for erecting structures such as a pergola, etc. But this being at a height of more than 1 m from the street level it does require Council approval.

      So was the Town Planner right or the Strata Manager right?

      Plus, how appropriate (or legal) it is to change a decision already made, in the way it was changed in my case?

    Viewing 5 replies - 1 through 5 (of 5 total)
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    • #15499
      Jimmy-T
      Keymaster

        Your pergola will almost certainly be attached to Common Property at some point and this may require a special resolution by-law which will cover such items as ongoing maintenance of the pergola (your responsibility) as well as ensuring that a future Owners Corp doesn’t change its mind and ask you to remove the structure. You’d do well to just accept that and get a strata lawyer to draft the required by-law for approval. The assurances you are giving are basically what a by-law would provide but it would also protect your and future owners’ of your property’s interests.

        The issue of council approval depends on the council but they usually take little interest in it – especially if it is approved by the Owners Corp and doesn’t affect other buildings.

        As far as changing her advice, the Strata Manager is clearly not sure of the laws herself and in any case, can only act as instructed by the OC. The final advice sounds right and I would proceed along the route of getting a special resolution approval, subject to the OC approving the design and materials (if need be) and you employing a reputable builder.

        Meanwhile get bthe council’s planning department to tell you exactly what they need from you and do your best to comply.

        It’s tricky but it’s better to be street legal than fighting either your neighbours or the council.

        The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
        #15502
        edc
        Flatchatter
        Chat-starter

          @JimmyT said:
          Your pergola will almost certainly be attached to Common Property at some point and this may require a special resolution by-law which will cover such items as ongoing maintenance of the pergola (your responsibility) as well as ensuring that a future Owners Corp doesn’t change its mind and ask you to remove the structure. You’d do well to just accept that and get a strata lawyer to draft the required by-law for approval. The assurances you are giving are basically what a by-law would provide but it would also protect your and future owners’ of your property’s interests.

          The issue of council approval depends on the council but they usually take little interest in it – especially if it is approved by the Owners Corp and doesn’t affect other buildings.

          As far as changing her advice, the Strata Manager is clearly not sure of the laws herself and in any case, can only act as instructed by the OC. The final advice sounds right and I would proceed along the route of getting a special resolution approval, subject to the OC approving the design and materials (if need be) and you employing a reputable builder.

          Meanwhile get bthe council’s planning department to tell you exactly what they need from you and do your best to comply.

          It’s tricky but it’s better to be street legal than fighting either your neighbours or the council.

          Hi Jimmy,

           

          Thanks for your fast answer (I needed that, as all this has been extremely frustrsting…)! I will just answer to the points you made:

          Yes, the Pergola has to be attached to the Common Property, or at least sitting on it (as the floor is indeeed Common Property from what I know).

          In the initial post I didn’t give you the full story (as I tried to keep an already long email as short as possible): about one and a half years ago I have had a ByLaw written, and went to an EGM with it, but it got rejected: at the time I had “big plans”, with architectural drawings of actual rooms that I wanted to build on the verandah (such as an extension to the kitchen / livingroom, a covered patio / barbeque area, and another room in the far corner (we thought of it as a ‘conservatory’). We spent quite a lot of $ on having all these done, and of course spent for the EGM. And it got rejected “out of hand” so to speak, as a large proportion of the owners are not actually living in the building, and so not interested but in maintaining the Status Quo, and the few that showed up at the EGM were influenced negatively by the current lady (former solicitor) who is now part of the ExCo (basically she mentioned all the concerns that the Council might have, and said that because of these concerns she recommends a rejection; during the EGM I mentioned that actually these are Council concerns, and not OC concerns, and described what the Strata lawyers said about what the OC concerns should be, and addressed them one by one, but I was not successful, she clearly has a knack on manipulating the audience and I nor the architect were as skilled at that).

          So in the past year I thought what if I just build a pergola, this is indeed much less; so how hard could that be? Given the past experience on how the OC votes I am trying to find a way that does not require OC approval; the Town Planner told me that a Pergola, “as it is just a pergola” requires only ExCo approval (bar maybe the next door neighbour, which should also be interested to erect a pergola, as he has the same reasons as I have: significant loss of privacy, changed wind patterns, protection against elements and flies, mosquitoes, etc). So I asked the architect to change the plans, replace everything to pergolas, etc, and went for approval by the ExCo. This is when it became doubly frustrating: she again invokes all the concerns that the Council might invoke, as reasons to not approve, but not really invoking any of the concerns that an OC / ExCo should have.

          I am at a loss here, and ready to go for mediation, etc. I spent already a lot ($ and time) on architects and on bylaws, so I can spend at least the same amount on legal matters, just for the sake of it! Probably when, and if, I get a satisfactory outcome from the Court there will be no money left to actually build anything, but at least I prove my point. And also my 25 years long marriage will be finished, as my wife already wants to move out if “I do not do anything about this”.

          So… still the question is: do I need a Bylaw (which in itself requires an OC approval) or not? Cause is unlikely that I will get a ByLaw approved (Pergola or otherwise), given the context of this issue. Please disregard the issue of ‘how safe it will be for me” after the whole construction finishes, I am ready to take the risk to that degree.

           

          Thanks again Jimmy,

          and sorry for the long reply.

          #15534

          Hi edc,

          In my opinion, to put it simply, there is too much information, your renovations include a change to Common Property as JT has advised, a change to CP needs to be addressed and approved at a general meeting. If it is not approved at a general meeting your renovations may not go ahead. There are two streams of approval when doing renos, one is the strata the other is council, they are seperate entities and council does not overrule strata, though they often work together as some renos need both strata and council approval. A bylaw will need to be drafted to protect all owners from maintaining your renos. This bylaw will also need to be accepted by the OC. My suggestion is you start again, look at today as day one, engage a decent strata lawyer who will know their way around these issues and be able to draft a bylaw suitable to all and deal with your strata manager for you. If the lawyer feels you need to get into the ‘he said she said’ they will advise you but it really should not be necessary. They will then advise you if and when you need to begin mediation and pursue through CTTT.

          Cheers,

          CBF Smile

          #15538
          struggler
          Flatchatter

            Agree with CBF’s comments.  Get the bylaw to show the OC that yourself (or future owners) will take full responsibility for maintenance, upkeep and future replacement of this pergola.  

            A pergola would not only be attached to the floor but no doubt to the wall as well which is also common property.

            #15541
            edc
            Flatchatter
            Chat-starter

              @struggler said:
              Agree with CBF’s comments.  Get the bylaw to show the OC that yourself (or future owners) will take full responsibility for maintenance, upkeep and future replacement of this pergola.  

              A pergola would not only be attached to the floor but no doubt to the wall as well which is also common property.

              Thank you all,

              I will do what you mentioned.

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