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  • #9892
    Felix
    Flatchatter

      This concerns a 32 unit strata in NSW.

      An ECM was recently held where 4 visitors attended.  When the ECM was declared closed the visitors departed.  However it seems the EC then met again after the visitors departed and discussed whatever. 

      A decision on air conditioning external pipework must have been made by this ECM at this second meeting as it appears in the minutes of the meeting.

      At no time during the official ECM was the air conditioning discussed yet a decision on this subject appears in the minutes of the ECM.

      The decision was that no further action be taken against an offending unit Owner who put the pipework outside the building where it is highly visible for all to see.

      At the previous 2 or 3 ECM it was agreed by the EC that the pipework was not in keeping with the appearance of the building and the strata manager was instructed to address this problem with the Owners and stated that all pipework must be run internally within the apartment and the overall appearance of the external facade must not be altered.

      This is in the minutes of EC meetings of the last few months.

      The Strata Plan has by-laws that have been given to all Owners in writing and is posted on the bulletin board.

      The by-law states: Appearance of Lot: The Owner or occupier of a lot must not, without the written consent of the OC, maintain within the lot anything visible from outside the lot that, viewed from outside the lot, is not in keeping with the rest of the building.

      Please advise how you would proceed in this matter as there are a few issues here.

      Thanks in advance.

    Viewing 11 replies - 1 through 11 (of 11 total)
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    • #23010
      Stevecro
      Flatchatter

        Ok there are many issues here. Firstly the EC cannot make a decision on an item unless it is listed on the Agenda of an EC meeting. The EC can discuss whatever they wish, but discussions are not decisions, and you cannot turn a discussion into a decision unless it is clearly listed  as a motion on the Agenda of that meeting,  a lot people tend to confuse the two.

        An option would be to try calling an EGM; or if you have an AGM coming up, submitting a motion to be included on the agenda of that meeting. Any decision that is made in regards to the illegal works can be decided there, and any decision that is made at a General Meeting will overturn the EC decision not to pursue this matter.

        Other than that, you could apply for mediation against the OC for not pursuing a breach of by law or mediation against that individual owner.

        #23012
        Jimmy-T
        Keymaster

          @Stevecro said:
          … the EC cannot make a decision on an item unless it is listed on the Agenda of an EC meeting. The EC can discuss whatever they wish, but discussions are not decisions, and you cannot turn a discussion into a decision unless it is clearly listed  as a motion on the Agenda of that meeting,  a lot people tend to confuse the two.

          Are you sure about that?  I know you can’t decide on anything at a general meeting that isn’t on the sgenda but I thought the rules for EC meetings were a lot less rigid and allowed for “Any Other Competent Business …”.  Maybe not.

          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
          #23019
          Stevecro
          Flatchatter

            Well I am not sure, however from my point of view, if the EC didn’t have to hold meetings to make decisions, then the SSMA wouldn’t mention that you must give the OC 72 hour’s notice for EC meetings with an agenda posted on a notice board or sent out to all owners etc.

            Also if the EC is able to make decisions freely outside of EC meetings it would defeat the purpose of the following clause in the SSMA 1996:

            11   Decisions of executive committee

             (2)  A decision of an executive committee has no force or effect if, before that decision is made, notice in writing is given to the secretary of the executive committee by one or more owners, the sum of whose unit entitlements exceeds one-third of the aggregate unit entitlement, that the making of the decision is opposed by those owners.

            Owners would not be aware of any upcoming decisions, hence would not be given the chance to object to motions on the agenda as shown above.

            Another point to add to the debate is that the SSMA says that even though EC meetings can be held in writing, the EC is still bound by the same processes as if holding a ‘regular’ EC meeting in person:

            10   Voting in writing by members of executive committee

            (1)  A resolution is taken to have been validly passed even though the meeting at which the motion for the resolution was proposed to be submitted was not held if:

            (a)  notice was given in accordance with clause 6 of the intended meeting, and

            (b)  a copy of the motion for the resolution was served on each member of the executive committee, and

            (c)  the resolution was approved in writing by a majority of members of the executive committee.

            (2)  This clause is subject to clause 11 (2).

            I guess the one of the main purposes of holding EC meetings is for transparency to the rest of the OC. If decisions were just made at will outside of EC meetings, then the rest of the OC would not be aware of what decisions are being made within the scheme they are living in and what their money is being spent on. Also it would make for a dysfunctional EC if certain members got together and excluded other members of EC and starting making decisions in little groups; spending the OCs funds as they wished.

            There is no such thing as ‘general business’. I guess some schemes can add their odds and ends here, however from my point of view, ‘general business’ should only include a discussion, not decision making. Again the reason for this is transparency. If you have a title on the agenda saying ‘General Business’ and no motions listed under it, then it can be taken that no other decisions are going to made at the EC meeting, hence as above the OC would not be given a chance to object to any decisions made through ‘general business’. I am guessing this would also apply equally to all General Meetings.

            The only exception that I can think of where the EC would NOT have to hold a meeting to make a decision would be in an emergency. These decisions would be very rare. E.g. A pipe bursts causing significant damage to the rest of the building, the EC simply needs to make a decision to get the repairs done.

            This is just my point of view, however I may be wrong, we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect all other opinions on here.

            #23020
            Jimmy-T
            Keymaster

              I understand and appreciate what you are saying but neither of the clauses you cite specifically say that a decision at an executive committee meeting can only be on an agenda item.  I wasn’t being sarcastic when I said I wasn’t sure that you were correct – I am genuinely unsure and when Scottie or Whale come up for air, they may be able to clarify.

              The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
              #23024
              Whale
              Flatchatter

                Sorry all; I’m migrating north with Mrs Whale at present, and haven’t had much time to check flat-chats!

                I agree with Stevecro on this one. My rationale is that the Agenda of an E/C Meeting is required to be provided 72 hours in advance so that Owners know about the matter/s to be discussed there, so that those such as Felix who have an interest in how something may be resolved can attend and perhaps ask to be heard, or even so that ≥30% of Owners (by unit entitlement) may actually veto the making of a decision on an item altogether.

                None of that can occur without a Notice of Agenda, and again I agree with Stevecro that, as for General Meetings, an item titled “general business” is a great opportunity for an informal chat, but that’s all!

                By the way, back to Felix‘s original post, I don’t think that the By-Law quoted there is applicable to the installation of an air-conditioner, but it rather relates to items located inside a Lot that are visible from outside, such as non-uniform window coverings and laundry items.

                In the absence of a Special By-Law at Felix‘s Plan that provides the mechanism for the installation of air-conditioners, including conditions such as screening of external components, the Owners concerned have, by altering that external facade of the building, breached Sect 65A of the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act (SCMA).

                In such circumstances, the Strata Manager (if so delegated) should be advising the offending Owners of their non-compliance with the SCMA, and advising them that there will be an item on the Agenda of the next General Meeting to specially resolve whether their air-conditioner installation may be approved retrospectively with conditions (e.g screening), or whether they’ll be required by the Owners Corporation to at their cost remove it and to return the building to its original state.

                There’s a bit more detail about managing the on-going maintenance of the Owners air-conditioner and whether a generic Special By-Law may be advantageous, but maybe that’s for another day.

                #23031
                scotlandx
                Strataguru

                  I also agree with Stevecro, otherwise there is no point in having a notice and agenda.  As a general matter of the laws of meetings, you can’t have a resolution/decision unless it is on the agenda (note this can vary depending on the circumstances, for example you may have to make a decision on something in an emergency, or at late notice).

                  Here the owners have an interest in the purported resolution.  Of more concern is that the meeting was said to be closed and the EC then “made” the decision after that – it seems to be very deliberate.  I would be writing a letter to the EC asking them why they did that.

                  I also agree with Whale – the relevant provision is section 65A of the Act, the owner has altered/added to common property and require approval or should be compelled to remove it.

                  #23034
                  Jimmy-T
                  Keymaster

                    Yes, I have spoken to my legal eagles and they confirm that there can be no decisions made on general business at EC meetings (although you can have discussions withoiut taking a vote). Don’t know where my brain was before.

                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                    #23041
                    Felix
                    Flatchatter
                    Chat-starter

                      Thanks fellas for your input.  it’s good to see the four of you involved!

                      Scotlandx points out that the second meeting after the original ECM was closed seems to be deliberate.

                      It was deliberate in order to keep out one of the visitors from knowing about their discussions and eventual decisions.

                      I must say that it doesn’t appear to have the best interests of the Owners at heart and I feel quite immature.  

                      The EC is elected to act on behalf of the Owners and transparency from the EC to the Owners is essential.

                      On to the next main issue:

                      How best to have the by-law upheld and the outside pipe work removed.

                      We know, as in the minutes of ECM’S of Nov. and Dec., that the managing agent was instructed to deal with the matter and instruct the Owners to have the pipework removed.

                      No Notice To Comply was ever issued! 

                      So what do you suggest for the next step, particularly after the EC and managing agent will be notified that the EC cannot make a decision on an item unless it is listed on the Agenda of the EC meeting?

                      Some Owners would like this issue to be sorted out ASAP without going to mediation.

                      #23043
                      Whale
                      Flatchatter

                        Felix – as both Scottie and myself advised, the Owners who have installed the air-conditioner are not in breach of any By-Law and therefore a Notice to Comply cannot be issued!

                        Again, the learned Scottie and me advised you that those Owners are in breach of Sect 65A of the Act, and in that regard you’re quite right by suggesting that you and like-minded Owners need to quickly sort this out, because in my experience the longer such breaches of the Act are allowed to continue, the more quickly others perpetuate, and the more likely they all are to become “rusted-on” (pardon the pun).

                        In the absence of a relevant Special By-Law at your Plan, the Executive Committee (E/C) cannot itself grant consent to the air-conditioner installation (which whether by design or by coincidence they didn’t), and as only a special resolution at a General Meeting can grant that consent (or not), the matter needs to listed as an Agenda Item at that forum.

                        If your next AGM is too far away, then you need to speak with like-minded Owners and if necessary lobby more to the extent that you have at least 25% of those (by unit entitlement) on-side, at which point you can collectively “requisition” the E/C Secretary to convene an Extraordinary General Meeting just to consider and vote upon granting conditional consent to the air-conditioner installation, or otherwise to instruct the offending Owners to remove it and to return the common property to its original state.

                        If your Owners Corporation (O/C) does grant consent retrospectively with conditions, then as it would presumably want to enure that the Owners and not the O/C are responsible for the maintenance of the entirety of the installation, it would additionally require a Special By-Law to be concurrently voted upon in those same terms (i.e. a special resolution) in order to achieve that.

                        This is getting a little complex, so maybe come back if / when the General Meeting is about to be convened.

                        #23045
                        Felix
                        Flatchatter
                        Chat-starter

                          Thanks Whale. It doesn’t get any easier.

                          For a number of years the OC allowed putting the condensers on the balconies, which around 12 Owners have done so far and are still doing it.

                          Pipework has not been allowed on the outside walls and has been directed to go inside.

                          Can we continue this way or do we have to change or can you separate the condensers from the pipework?

                          #23046
                          Whale
                          Flatchatter

                            Felix – it’s a grey area that others may wish to comment upon, but in my opinion a non-compliance with S65A of the Strata Schemes Management Act would arise if anything has, without the prior written consent of the O/C, been placed through and / or been permanently attached to a common wall by an Owner; that is irrespective of whether that’s on the inside or outside of that wall.

                            No matter the condenser unit of the air-con. has been placed on as opposed to being fixed to the balcony floor (Common Property), the electrical cabling, and refrigeration and drainage pipework has been placed through and then attached to common property, and that’s a non-compliance that your O/C should address retrospectively by way of the Special By-Law that I previously suggested, that should cover all components of aircon. installations by Owners.

                            As I’ve said in the past, my opinion about “wink and nod” arrangements such as your E/C has used is that they’re all good until something hits the proverbial fan, at which stage things almost always go pear-shaped in a hurry!

                            Any Strata Manager who’s worth half what your O/C’s paying them should be able to assist in properly resolving this issue, so maybe start there. 

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