- This topic has 6 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Topic
-
I know that ‘general business’ cannot be listed on an Agenda for an AGM however our EC constantly lists “general business” on the agenda for EC meetings.
I attended a workshop held by SCA relating to EC’s and how they should be operated and the facilitator advised against having “general business” on the agenda since “general business” involves “chatting” and items raised under ‘general business’ are not minuted.
The secretary sent out an agenda for an upcoming EC meeting and listed ‘general business’ as an agenda item. I contacted her and asked for this agenda item to be removed since it was vague and that I had been advised against including ‘general business’ as an agenda item. The secretary came back with a comment that she had copied what a previous secretary did (he has not been on the EC for over 4 years) and it would remain.
I have searched through information relating to meetings and can find where it states ‘general business’ cannot be discussed at an AGM however I cannot find anything documented that ‘general business’ should not be listed as an agenda item for EC meetings. Can anyone shed any light on this? I agree with the facilitator of the workshop and the common sense logic however our EC are like so many others – have bullies who always seem to out vote the others so I try to point them in the direction of the written word except in this case I only have the ‘spoken word’ of a sensible facilitator – any thoughts/input would be appreciated.
-
Replies
-
You’re right in that there’s no specific reference in the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act (SCMA) about “general business” not being a permitted Agenda Item for Meetings of the Executive Committee, and in fact it’s not all that explicit in the SCMA with regard to General Meetings either – except for prescribing that only Motions shown on the Agenda can be voted upon.
Provided no specific decisions affecting the management of the Plan are taken during discussions of “general business” and the Secretary is advised that the Meeting concludes after the last Motion on the Agenda is resolved, then I’d be inclined to let her have her informal chat (because that’s what it is).
I love this thread.
I wish I could upload every set of minutes from our EC for the last 8 years or so.
Take our last EC meeting for example. Under general business you will find literally a dozen motions relating to matters not on the agenda. Every meeting for the last 5 years (except maybe one) has this defect.
Now before you all start thinking about having the resolutions invalidated or some other action through the legends at NCAT I will have you note that the matter has been to NCAT (CTTT at the time) as a part of a s162 application and nothing was said about it by the Senior Member who dealt with the matter. That Senior Member was a former member of the Strata Schemes Board.
As recently March the 6th 2014 the Secretary of this SP told Member Vrabac that the EC was entitled to introduce matters under general business, this occured at an appeal of a matter that involved another issue. The Member did not flinch. That the Member said nothing is what could be deemed “enabling”. An enabler being someone who does nothing when they know there is a wrong and so enables the wrong to continue.It is just a laughable situation when one considers two former Secretaries of this SP were told by OFTs top strata man that the business of the EC meeting is the agenda. This SP’s EC’s have been sent expert comment from a top shelf strata lawyer who makes it clear an EC meeting is confined to the agenda. SCA make it clear.
Yet CTTT do nothing when given 3 years of minutes that show a complete failure to understand that concept and a Senior Member says nothing when a Secretary claims the EC has a right to introduce what it likes.General business is not chit chat in this SP and that position has been “enabled” by CTTT and NCAT and that position is protected by a prevailing clique who protect their non compliance culture with vigor.
FYI the agenda for the next meeting is 3 items.
Motions for 2014 AGM
Ongoing implementation of AGM resolutions
Report on wall sealing and bird proofing of Hall.None of these item even need a meeting but you can bet that under general bussiness in the EC meeting minutes there will be numerous resolutions relating to other matters.
Chit chat – no around these parts it aint.There seems to be a little confusion in all this (or maybe just I am easily confused) but it is absolutely valid to put General Business as a heading at an EC meeting since that is the forum for general discussions as well as specific agenda items. Bear in mind that there are limits to decisions that the EC can make without referring matters to a General meeting.
And there would be nothing wrong with having “General Business” as a section heading in an AGM agenda – along with, say, “Finances” and Maintenance” – provided that heading relates to specific motions that are listed in the agenda.
And you could even have a section as part of the AGM where general business was discussed but no decisions were made or votes taken.
Others disagree with this – preferring to keep the AGM “clean” so there is no doubt about what has been discussed and agreed – but I think there are few enough occasions when you can get a lot of owners together to get a sense of how they feel about various issues in the building BEFORE you put items on an agenda.
Where there is a problem is where new items are added and voted on at a General Meeting without owners having prior knowledge through a correctly issued agenda.
In those cases, where an item isn’t on an agenda but later appears in minutes as a resolution, the case for invalidating the decision would be pretty strong.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
@Panamenke said:
The last EC meeting had 5 items discussed and approved under “General Business” and I have major concerns about the transparency of this.The last 5 years of Executive Committee meetings in my SP have the problem of item after item being introduced (not on the agenda) and resolved and then recorded under the heading of general business. And general business is never on the agenda. As i posted below; 12 resolutions under general business at the last meeting.
These are generally people who think that the “mechanics” of an informal meeting will suffice for an Executive Committee meeting in strata scheme. They are sadly mistaken but they are also well protected by NCAT who are always reluctant to intervene in the machinations of any particular SP. NCAT do not micro-manage (as they call it) SPs and this sort of defect in procedure comes under micro management.
It is actually a denial of procedural fairness as you have no opportunity to veto things you have no notice of.
I refer to Sch 3 cl 11(2) and the power of owners to “veto” an EC from making a decision on an EC agenda item. Cannot veto what you have no notice of AND
Sch 3 cl 6(3) actually requires owners be given a detailed agenda.
Nothing detailed about an agenda which does not have items on it that later appear in minutes as resolutions.Both these pieces of legislation are found in Sch 3 of the SSMA i.e. the Constitution of the Executive Committee. Both are reduced to being meaningless if an EC can introduce what ever they like as general business, with our without general business actually appearing on the agenda. It was not the intent of the Parliament to have these two pieces of legislation be meaningless.
I can assure you this sort of thing devalues your SPs “brand” and discourages strata savvy buyers. I would not buy if i saw EC minutes full of resolutions regarding matters not on the agenda – that says “run by cowboys, head for the exit turnstile”. It’s not a good look when so many SPs actually follow the requirement to give notice of a matter before they pass a resolution.
If you ever end up at NCAT over this sort of thing then this might help:
“I accept in effect the applicant’s submission that before a decision can be made by the owners corporation whether at its general meeting or by its executive committee meeting there must be due notice.”
M Balding in Bales v The Owners Corporation SP 12303 (Strata and Community Schemes) [2009] NSWCTTT 296 (2 June 2009)Member Balding, that is ex-Deputy Chairperson Balding, is referring to notice of the item at an AGM, not notice of the meeting. Note she states notice of the item is required even at the EC meeting level.
It isn’t rocket science; if your EC are not doing it, i.e. notice before resolution, then it is because they don’t want to.
It isn’t a hard concept to understand.
Notice – resolution – action.Early in my involvement with NSW Strata living around 19 years ago I read the Strata Living (Fair Trading NSW) publication which at the time made it very easy to be left with the impression that those who turned up at a meeting could do whatever they wanted, be it either the OC or EC. I don’t recall any of the six strata managers from four different firms since ever saying anything to contradict this notion. There was probably a general sense that dramatic alterations should be presented to the OC but without such details as an estimated cost.
I suspect Strata managers have a vested interest in not upsetting their main customers with inconvenient (and extra) work making details such as special resolutions and EGM’s (instead of a thought at the end of an AGM under “General Business” and many owners (especially investors) have been comfortable with this and neither knowing or caring what has been inflicted on tenants or other owners owing to ill thought out alterations e.g. bright lights shining into bedrooms instead of a carefully considered placement or door closers set to maximum impact with no consideration about adjustability or changing locks and/or fitting noise mitigating material.
Thus we have a form of constitutional democracy where the victim needs to pay over $140 to call the “police” (NTTT adjudicator) and has to do the detective work and the brief of evidence to a high standard; and even if victorious the likely best outcome is that they get to pay their share of whatever extra cost there is to the OC to undo the illegal work and replace it if considered necessary.
Some sort of registration for EC members where they have to sign an A4 page indicating that they understand the listed key requirements of strata law e.g. nature of Agenda’s and details required, Special resolutions, etc. Three quarters of an A4 page should cover the important points and this could be sent off to “Fair Trading” and filed. This seems and is intended as an easy minimum but a big step ahead of our current primitive tribal council/’big man”/avoid “red tape” strata culture.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.