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  • #7753

    In all the discussion I’ve read about the noise impact of hard surface flooring in apartments where owners are wanting to replace some or all of a previously carpeted area, I’ve not seen anyone state the strong case for ground floors to be treated differently from upper levels. Impact noise from hard flooring such as tiles or timber is the main problem yet on ground floors this is not an issue. Airborn sound can be exacerbated by hard flooring relative to carpet but if the hard flooring is not installed in any rooms adjacent to neighboring apartments, this is also not an issue in ground floor apartments. There are some who say that ground floor lots should be treated no differently in hard flooring bylaws to upper level lots but this is illogical as they are different in that they have external entrances from coutryards lawn and garden areas. In our case there are seven extertal doorways apart from the front entrance door and dirt gets traipsed in from the outside which is not the case in the upper level apartments where there are only balconies. Moreover the sound insulation experts advise that impact sound can’t even be measured in ground floor apartments so there clearly is a case for ground floor lots to be treated differently in relation to flooring by laws.Surprised

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  • #14099

    Hi Nixie,

    I live above a ground floor unit that has both timber floors and a courtyard and underneath a unit with timber floors and a balcony. 

    In fact all our units were originally built with timber floors, only 8 years ago.

    I find the noise from below to be as bad as the noise from above and also just as bad from each side. Especially late at night or early mornings when there are not too many other building noises.

    Most residents are aware of the noise transference and remove shoes but when going out or entertaining people wear shoes, and the clacking of hard soled shoes can be more than a nuisance.

    Having said that I still love timber floors. Using rugs throughout certainly helps muffle the noise.

    Cheers CBF

    #14102
    Whale
    Flatchatter

      Nixie,

      What you say is entirely logical, and a couple of years ago we in fact considered some degree of differentiation in the application of our Plan's Special By-Law (floating floors) to ground floor Units.

      That differentiation was proven flawed after one “test case” in an E/C Member's Unit, because even though the floating floor involved was in a living area that didn't adjoin a common wall (with another Unit), the noise of young children moving about on that floor DID travel to adjoining Units.

      OK – maybe you don't have young children, or if you do, you may properly manage their movements about on the floating floor, but that won't always be the case. Sooner or later you'll sell or tenant your Unit, and suddenly that noise will become a problem!

      All things considered, the marginal costs of compliance with any reasonable standard for sound-proofing the hard-surface flooring in your ground floor Unit is very small in the context of the whole job cost.

      #14116

      In response to the two ensuing posts from my original submission I can only say that each case can be very different and that's why by-laws shouldn't be too prescriptive. Rather the requirement that noise should not be permitted to disturb the peacful enjoyment of people in neihboring lots is really what this whole issue is about. In my case 'the proof is in the pudding'. I have laid tiles over an extended entrance area between the front doorway and the kitchen and bathroom/laundry but carpet remains through the rest of the unit including the lounge/dining area and all 3 bedrooms. Although I'm on the ground floor I still used some of the best available sound cushioning underlay and neither the occupants above or beside my apartment have heard any noise whatsoever. By the way we do have grandchildren and they can make a fair amount of noise but nothing has been evident above or below. Another ground floor apartment in our strata was concerned about the prospect of impact noise when OC permission was granted to the unit above to replace carpet with a floating floor laid over the best available acoustic underlay. Now that it's all finished they have admitted that the impact noise from above is no greater than with the original carpet. So it seems that whether or not hard surface flooring is going to be a noise problem depends so much on the individual situation i.e., what materials are used over how much of the apartment and whether or not the best available sound cushioning materials are used as well as whether or not the unit is on the ground floor, thickness of the concrete floor and whether or not  there are other sound cusioning factors such as any gaps between the surfaces to minimise noise transfer. So setting arbitrary impact insulation measures in by-laws to apply equally to all lots that are designed to effectively prevent anybody replacing any bit of their carpet with almost any type of hard flooring even if it's just in the entrance or high traffic areas can certainly be overly prescriptive and inappropriate for some especially if they're on the ground floor with no-one living below.

      #14115
      Whale
      Flatchatter

        Nixie,

        I don’t know what your Scheme’s Special By-Law requires with regard to hard-surface flooring, but it should be no more prescriptive than to specify the achievement of a minimum Ln,w+C1 (the Australian equivalent of the US Impact Test) that at least complies with the Building Codes of Australia standard for multi-storey buildings.

        Our Plan takes the view that how Proprietors propose to meet our minimum standard of “50” is a matter between them and their installers, and thus far and with only one exception, everyone’s done exactly what you and your ground floor neighbour did by using “some of the best available sound cushioning underlay” and  ‘the best available acoustic underlay”; there are ample products available.

        Apart from that “test case” where the Proprietor (our then E/C Chairman and Franchisee of a local carpet outlet) had agreed to rectify any problems if they arose, we’ve only had that single problem in five authorised installations, where the purchaser of a Unit received an allowance at Settlement to cover her costs to take-up an unauthorised floating floor, which as it eventuated had no acoustic underlay at all.

        So I don’t really see what your issue is with regard to compliance with relevant By-Laws, because as I see it both you and your ground floor neighbour have complied (and in your case it appears that you would have notwithstanding any requirement to do so), and that’'s precisely why neither of you have experienced any subsequent noise complaints. 

        #14118

        Hi Whale, your suggestion that a minimum Ln,W+C1 acoustic underlay in laboratory performance test of dB 50 would permit a number of materials to be used in place of carpet but in our case the by-law was set at db 40 and only carpet or a floating floor with the best available underlay has been shown to deliver this standard in laboratory test results.

        But this still doesn't change the fact that each situation is different and that noise transfer particularly impact noise in ground floor units is materially less than in units above. Therefore any reasonable noise transferance by-law should allow for this in respect of ground floor units.

        #14125
        Jimmy-T
        Keymaster

          I think it's fair to say the acoustics of every building are different which is one of the reasons it's unwise to create prescriptive by-laws that either don't sufficiently address the issues of noise or, alternatively, are so draconian that they could, feasibly, be challenged at the CTTT or in court.

          The only real test is whether the occupants of one unit disturb the occupants of another unit because of their floor covering and the way they behave in the apartment.

          One of the isses with hard flooring is that they reflect noise into the air (if you want to sse this at its worst, go to a busy cafe with concrete floors and low ceilings and try to have a conversation). Some of noise, obviously, will be transferred through walls, ceilings and pipes (which is why some buildings ban you from playing your radio in the bathroom – true!).

          There is also a question of indirectly transmitted noise where, theoretically, vibrations from a floor can be transmitted via a wall to another wall above or below.  And until someone does a study on the transmission of noise via the structure of a building, all of this will remain a mystery.

          Plainly and simply, nothing absorbs noise like carpet but that shouldn't mean that we all have to re-rug our floors.  However, we shouldn't expect our neighbours to put up with excessive noise because we want a trendier or easier to clean floor.

          If I were putting together a by-law on flooring, it would say that you can put down whatever you like provided you sign a contract agreeing to rip it back up again if it proves to be a nuisance to other owners (by any reasonable measure). 

          Put the responsibility back on the renovater to either get it right first time or keep fixing it until it is right (with some guidance on what has been shown to be effective and warnings about how cheap flooring with inadequate insulation end up costing more when they have to be replaced).

          For ground floor flats with vertical and lateral noise transmission, you might think about installing acoustic walls and ceilings which are often a lot cheaper than you'd think.

          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
          #14146
          Anonymous

            We live on the top, third level, of a cheaply built 60s building with a ground floor unit two levels below us.

            A few years ago, a new ground floor owner ripped up the carpet to find, whack-o, a parquet floor in terrific condition! (Guess why it had been carpeted over.) This floor sounded terrific underfoot to her, prancing around in her high heels at all hours, talking loudly with her hands-free phone blue-toothed to her heard.

            We could hear and feel her clomp, clomp, clomp, rat tat tat as well as her side of her inane phone conversations very clearly indeed, two floors above. And wouldn't you know it, requests from all her neighbours for her to tone things down and show a bit more consideration were met with replies like “Get a life” and much worse as time wore on.

            Eventually, when another resident blew his cool and made threats, she actually got some rugs, mats and wall hangings and did tone things down… and we all lived happily ever after, comparatively.

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