Flat Chat Strata Forum Common Property Current Page

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  • #8284

    Hi all,

    I am on the EC in an 11 strata lot complex in southern Sydney. The complex is comprised of 1 villa and 10 townhouses. The villa and 4 of the townhouses face the street, which is a reasonably busy road and the remainder of the townhouses are at the rear of the property.

    The property is 11 years old, and we’ve been living in our lot since the complex was brand new. We’ve had a lot of issues over the last 11 years, including nearly all bathrooms in all lots needing to be replaced under building insurance, cracking of walls and replacement of the tiles on about 90% of the common walkway (some covered by building insurance, some not). This has sucked up a lot of funds for the repairs and also legal costs which have come from the sinking fund and admin fund.

    The EC has been very conscious to avoid raising any special levies, so a few years ago we raised the quarterly levies for each lot by about 10% to allow for replacement of funds into the admin and then transfer to the sinking fund after a sinking fund analysis showed that we needed to increase the value of the sinking fund.

    About a year ago, one of the lots was sold to a new owner, who has not lived through the hell that was major common property works. She has now started complaining very loudly that the common property is not maintained to her satisfaction. She says that she is constantly sweeping up leaves which blow onto her front step (she wants a cleaner to do this). She has also complained about the smell of the bin area (her front door is directly behind this area), the bins are emptied each week and we had to employ someone to take them out and bring them in as it was always one or two of the same residents doing it. She also complains that rubbish is in the common undercover parking area which is blown in from the street. She further complains about garden maintenance (she feels it isn’t enough) and has very loudly complained about what she perceives as high levies.

    Myself and the other EC member are at a bit of a loss. If we increase the common property services then this will increase the levies. We also disagree with her views of what is according to her a “mess”. In 11 years of living here, we’ve never had anyone raise these kind of complaints and no other owners have mentioned anything else of the kind (there is only 1 of the lots that is not owner occupied).

    We’ve invited her to join the EC at our next AGM in September, however in the meantime she expresses her annoyances on a pretty much daily basis with our strata manager and therefore with us.

    Any advice?

Viewing 14 replies - 1 through 14 (of 14 total)
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  • #16027
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      I’m guessing, given your legal expenses etc, that you have squeezed other spending as far as you can without damaging the value of the property.

      So put together a spreadsheet of all her complaints and how much it will cost to fix them, then add in all the existing costs of running the building and show her how much more in levies she will be paying if you accede to her demands. 

      Ask her which of the existing services she wants to remove in order to reduce her levies.

      I’ll bet my bottom dollar the first thing she’ll pick on is the Strata Management fees. Many owners think that all the money paid to the SM goes straight into their pockets.  In fact, most of it goes to pay bills that they take care of on your behalf.  I wonder if any of it is set against annoying phone calls from ill-informed owners.

      There is one other issue – when you buy a property, the levies are right there on the ad and in the literature handed out.  If she didn’t want to pay the levies, she should have found somewhere cheaper.

      Getting her on the EC may be a good idea – unless she is just one of these people who isn’t happy unless they have something to complain about.

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
      #16107
      Anonymous

        Hi Victoria,

        It seems to me that your EC is doing a pretty balanced job at running the scheme. Always remember that just because someone complains it doesn’t mean you are either doing a bad job or not doing what is reasonably required.

        The bottom line with common property maintenance is with section 62 of the SSMA, which states that the OC must maintain the common property in a state of good and reasonable repair. This is an area that we are legally requested by the CTTT to inspect and advise whether OC are keeping there schemes in compliance to section 62. As far as I am concerned smells from garbage areas and how often the common walkways are swept is not a common property section 62 issue.

        Jimmy has made a good suggestion, but at The end of the day the EC has a job to do and you can’t keep all Owners happy all the time. My advice is that all Owners have the right to raise issues and they should never be discouraged from doing so, however just deal with this ladies issue as you would any time, consider them and do what is required. If her complaints are not reasonable just tell her a so. Best for the future.

        Chris Mo’ane
        GMD Integrated Consultancy Group
        Principal Sponsor OCN, Corporate Members SCA, FPA

        #16115
        Anonymous

          Hi Chris … you say “as far as I am concerned smells from garbage areas and how often the common walkways are swept is not a common property section 62 issue.” This seems disingenuous. Don’t you think owners deserve to have their garbage areas kept as clean as possible and walkways swept? How can we ensure this is done? What do you mean, please?

          #16116
          Jimmy-T
          Keymaster

            UL, we collectively decide the standards by which we live.  Section 62 (I think) is about what needs to be done to keep a building in good repair – it’s not about lifestyle or social standards – and it’s there because most of us lack the training and experience to know what’s essential maintenance and what isn’t .

            If the majority of people in a building find the level of cleanliness unacceptable, they will pressure the EC into doing something about it.  If they are happy to live in a stinking tip, they will stay quiet.

            Now, I admit that IS disingenuous because I’m pretty sure the majority of people living in strata either don’t know that they can change things or they don’t care.  But I also know that if you tell people that a problem of which they are aware can be fixed, then they will make an informed decision to effect change. That doesn’t require trips to the CTTT – just a vote at a general meeting.

            We get the strata lifestyles we deserve and, yes, the most common democratic decision is to do nothing.  In extreme cases where there was a health hazard I’m sure Section 62 would apply.  Otherwise, you have to let people make their own choices about their priorities.  (And, by the way, I would upset and annoyed if my building was dirty and stank of garbage.)

            The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
            #16117
            Anonymous

              As one might expect, Strata Manager wins on a technicality?

              Of course keeping the bin room and the walkways clean is ‘maintaining the Common Property’.

              I would like to see Chris justify his stance personally rather than you jumping in to defend a ‘sponsor’ Jimmy. 

              #16118
              Jimmy-T
              Keymaster

                @Unexpected Leigh said:
                As one might expect, Strata Manager wins on a technicality?

                Chris isn’t a strata manager. Look at his website.  He knows more about the nuts and bolts of strata living than you or I could ever imagine. Also, technicalities are pretty much what we’re talking about here.

                Of course keeping the bin room and the walkways clean is ‘maintaining the Common Property’.

                “Of course…”? By whose definition?  This is in reference to Section 62 of the Act which says:

                62   What are the duties of an owners corporation to maintain and repair property?

                (1)  An owners corporation must properly maintain and keep in a state of good and serviceable repair the common property and any personal property vested in the owners corporation.

                (2)  An owners corporation must renew or replace any fixtures or fittings comprised in the common property and any personal property vested in the owners corporation.

                (3)  This clause does not apply to a particular item of property if the owners corporation determines by special resolution that:

                (a)  it is inappropriate to maintain, renew, replace or repair the property, and

                (b)  its decision will not affect the safety of any building, structure or common property in the strata scheme or detract from the appearance of any property in the strata scheme.

                Nothing about cleaning there and it does seem to imply maintenance of the physical structure of common property, rather than keeping it nice.  However,  a decision NOT to maintain the appearance of the building (rather than no decision to do so) could come into play.  It’s debatable – certainly not “of course’.

                I would like to see Chris justify his stance personally rather than you jumping in to defend a ‘sponsor’ Jimmy.

                Cheap shot! Judging by previous sarcastic comments you seem to have a problem with sponsorship. Here’s the reality: no sponsors, no website. It’s as simple as that.  However, we’re lucky to have people who not only want to support the website financially but to offer good, practical and reliable advice.

                And if agreeing with a poster who clearly knows what they’re talking about is ‘defending’ them then dress me in green and call me Robin Hood.

                The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                #16119
                Anonymous

                  Goodness me, isn’t it reasonable to expect one’s strata levies would cover keeping the walkways and the bin room clean enough so there are no arguments about what’s clean and what’s not?

                  Debatable

                  [Unnecessarily offensive comment removed – JT.]

                  #16120
                  Jimmy-T
                  Keymaster

                    Yes, you would expect that.  And as I explained in my post to which you took such great exception, you do that through normal democratic means.  Dragging your EC off to the CTTT is unlikely to get you the result that you seek, for reasons Chris Mo’ane pointed out – it’s not covered by the Act.

                    So why waste your time (and your neighbours’) not to mention the good relations in your building by tilting at windmills. There is a better and easier way to achieve the same result and still have most of the people in your building talking to each other at the end of the day.

                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                    #16121
                    scotlandx
                    Strataguru

                      If you look at the section 62 cases, and there are plenty of them, they deal with issues relating to the structure and infrastructure of the building.  This generally encompasses items such as painting, roof repairs, lifts, carpet replacement, fences, brickwork, concrete spalling, electrical and plumbing upgrades/repairs etc. etc.

                      How you deal with the rubbish bins, how often you sweep up leaves and the extent to which you weed the garden are not generally section 62 matters.  Each OC will deal with that differently.

                      There is an obligation under the Act to have a sinking fund.  This is for items that generally fall under section 62 matters, i.e. to finance major repairs and maintenance.  You don’t pay the cleaners and gardeners (if you have them) out of the sinking fund, that comes out of the admin fund.

                      In this case, the owner seems to enjoy complaining.  Some people do.  At our next AGM we will be tabling a list of everything that has been done over the last period and how much each of those cost.  Sometimes you need to demonstrate a link between the levies and the costs of running and maintaining the building.

                      #16122
                      Anonymous

                        Hey guys. Luvin the Flat Chat Forum.

                        But what if so called problem lady in Victoria’s building has lots of experience and is actually right? The walkways really ARE NOT being kept clean and the rubbish room really DOES smell and isn’t properly cleaned often enough? And the other owners are just so shell-shocked and worried because they’ve had so many probs and won’t spend the money keeping it good?

                        Some owner’s seem to enjoy complaining? Scotlandx, that’s not too fair. Jimmy??? Is that OK?

                        #16123
                        Jimmy-T
                        Keymaster

                          Juan

                          Your last comment made me laugh out loud (thanks – I needed it). I don’t know if Scotlandx’s comments are fair but I know they’re true (and I suspect you do too).
                          Getting back to the original question (AT LAST!) I do think people get used to a certain level of ‘care’ around their building and a fresh pair of eyes may think it’s inadequate and they may be right. hard not to ruffle feathers. I also think it’s a bit illogical for someone to whinge about the levies being too high and then complain that not enough work is being done around the place. And I’m guessing that’s where Scotlandx is coming from – when the someone has two complaints that are contradictory, you have to think that maybe they just like a good moan.

                          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                          #16127
                          scotlandx
                          Strataguru

                            Oh blimey, sorry if that came across the wrong way but in my experience there are people who do a lot of complaining and not much else.  That is what I was saying, here you have an owner who on the one hand is demanding a number of things and on the other hand is protesting what she says are high levies.

                            Maybe the complex is a cesspit but from the information given it seems unlikely.  Leaves do fall from trees and you can’t stop rubbish coming in from the street.  The only thing I would suggest is that the bin guy be asked to wash out the bins, however the basis of the gripe is likely to be that the bins are near that owner’s door.

                            If you live in a house you will find that leaves blow on to your path and front doorstep and if that bothers you, then you either sweep them up or get someone to do it for you.  In the latter case that will cost you money.  That is the problem I have found with living in a strata scheme, people abdicate all responsibility.  I have had one owner demand that we get a contractor to sweep up some leaves, which would have cost about $200.  I got the broom and swept them up myself, there was no way she was doing it.  The same owner thought she shouldn’t pay a special levy for some building works because she didn’t use that part of the common property.  Go figure. 

                            That is what I meant – I am not suggesting that certain standards shouldn’t be maintained.

                            #16128
                            struggler
                            Flatchatter

                              I too live in a townhouse complex. We have owners who appear to be happy to have a pile of leaves at their front door and a weed or two. They just step over them going in or out of their unit. I have also witnessed residents stepping over pieces of paper that have blown down the driveway from loose junk mail. It is disappointing when a resident does not want to take enough pride in where they are living to bend over and pick something/sweep something up.

                              The only way to ensure there were not leaves or pieces of paper would be to have someone standing by! Is once a week enough? Not if you live in an area with a lot of trees when the southerlies blow. Twice a week? Probably would do it. But I personally would not like the loss of privacy of having someone regularly at my front door sweeping up a few leaves. So I do this myself.

                              Most owners here would not lift a finger around this complex, they just expect someone else to do it. Not necessarily someone paid to do it, just as long as they don’t have to do it. However this does not apply to those residents who rent here. I have seen them pick up papers in the driveway and their front doors are swept and kept.

                              #16168
                              FlatChatFan
                              Flatchatter

                                @struggler said:
                                I too live in a townhouse complex. We have owners who appear to be happy to have a pile of leaves at their front door and a weed or two. They just step over them going in or out of their unit. … It is disappointing when a resident does not want to take enough pride in where they are living to bend over and pick something/sweep something up.

                                The only way to ensure there were not leaves or pieces of paper would be to have someone standing by! Is once a week enough? Not if you live in an area with a lot of trees when the southerlies blow. Twice a week? Probably would do it. But I personally would not like the loss of privacy of having someone regularly at my front door sweeping up a few leaves. So I do this myself.

                                I live in one of eleven villas in a 40+ year old complex, our garbage bins are our own responsibility and we put them out and bring them in as we would if we were in a Torrens Title property.

                                (I think some posters just in a big complex imagine everyone has a huge bin room that would get really on the nose.)

                                Most of the residents here take pride with their surroundings and sweep paths, etc. but we have a clean-up every six months or so and the regular gardener is given a list of things to be done that the Owners submit to the EC.

                                Getting back to victoria’s original post, we have a 5 year plan that seems to have low estimated costs. At our last AGM the SM put up suggested levies for this year but only three of us were prepared to pay the increased levies. Some of the owners are very elderly and on pensions.

                                One owner who was on the EC for several years, resigned, but was very vocal about the increase in levies.  His comment was “we can always get a Strata loan”.

                                As I am retiring from full time work next year I do not want to have the additional interest expense of a strata loan.

                                I am sure it will come up again at the AGM and I will say that as our villas are a perfect place to be in, even very elderly.  It would be cheaper in the long run for the families of the elderly owners to help them out with higher levies, so they can stay in their home for as long as possible.

                                If their elderly parent moves to aged care, I think the children will be losing a lot of their ‘inheritance’ because of the high costs involved getting an aged care bed anywhere.  Many people now have to sell the family home to afford the entry fees for aged care.

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