Flat Chat Strata Forum Parking Peeves Current Page

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  • #9487
    SiteMan
    Flatchatter

      Is anyone getting away with wheel clamping in Sydney.

      It is in our By-Laws but debatable whether it is legal if every single resident has not personally expressed consent to that By-Law.

      Don

    Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 16 total)
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    • #21524
      Jimmy-T
      Keymaster

        DON said:

        Is anyone getting away with wheel clamping in Sydney. It is in our By-Laws but debatable whether it is legal if every single resident has not personally expressed consent to that By-Law. 

        By-laws don’t have to be agreed by everyone to apply to all owners and tenants (see Section 44 below).  The law says that when a by-law is properly agreed by the required majority at a properly constituted general meeting, then it has the same effect as if every individual owner signed and sealed the agreement.

        That means, in some legal opinions, that the section of the Road Traffic Act that says you can’t clamp vehicles without the owners permission doesn’t apply because if you have a by-law allowing clamping of residents’ cars, then they have effectively given their permission.

        NB: this only applies to owners and tenants.  Visitors can’t be clamped because they haven’t signed up for the by-laws, even by default.

         

        44   Who is required to comply with the by-laws?

        (1)  The by-laws for a strata scheme bind the owners corporation and the owners and any mortgagee or covenant chargee in possession (whether in person or not), or lessee or occupier, of a lot to the same extent as if the by-laws:

        (a)  had been signed and sealed by the owners corporation and each owner and each such mortgagee, covenant chargee, lessee and occupier, and

        (b)  contained mutual covenants to observe and perform all the provisions of the by-laws.

        (2)  There is an implied covenant by the lessee in a lease of a lot or common property to comply with the by-laws for the strata scheme.

        (3)  In this section, lessee means, in relation to a lot in a strata leasehold scheme, a sublessee of the lot.

        The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
        #21526
        kiwipaul
        Flatchatter

          I totally agree with JT on this issue but I have not yet found a case in any state where a clamped vehicle or towed vehicle owner has gone to court over the issue. You’ve also got to be careful because as JT says it only applies to resident of the complex.

          A total stranger could use your visitor parking bays all day if the parking happened to be next to a commuter railway station and you are totally powerless to stop them. It’s a crazy situation and the new NSW legislation will do nothing to address it as it stands.

          #21527
          Whale
          Flatchatter

            Don, whilst we don’t yet know the reasons for your query, if your Plan is experiencing problems with illegal parking I’ll let you in on a little trick that one of our Sons and me tried at his strata building, near a commuter railway station.

            His Owners Corporation had Registered a Special By-Law covering the wheel clamping and removal of illegally parked vehicles and had purchased a few wheel clamps, but the E/C was hesitant to use them on the same half-dozen or so commuters’ vehicles that were regularly parked in visitors carspaces and in the car wash bays.

            So one night he and another couple of cooperative Owners parked their vehicles in some of those carspaces, and we then conspicuously fitted those bright yellow wheel clamps and a placed a similarly coloured typewritten note from the Owners Corporation on each of the windscreens to advise that the vehicles would be towed off-site on the next day.

            Then during the next day they put their vehicles back in the correct carspaces (one level lower) and after that, like magic, the illegal parkers disappeared!!

            I just rang our Son to check on the current status, and he said that whilst different “visitors” have since appeared periodically, the same trick has chased them away – even though they’ve had to co-opt different Owners to make their vehicles available as the hapless towees.

            #21533
            Jimmy-T
            Keymaster

              @kiwipaul said:
              It’s a crazy situation and the new NSW legislation will do nothing to address it as it stands.

              That’s a car space half-empty point of view, KP.  The proposed legislation will allow, nay, encourage council parking inspectors to patrol strata car parks at the behest of owners.  Has to be a step forward, don’t you think? 

              The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
              #21534
              kiwipaul
              Flatchatter

                @JimmyT said:

                That’s a car space half-empty point of view, KP.  The proposed legislation will allow, nay, encourage council parking inspectors to patrol strata car parks at the behest of owners.  Has to be a step forward, don’t you think? 

                I agree anything is better than nothing but I don’t see how the inspectors will know which cars are which in Visitor spaces. Unless you have a time limit say 2 hours.

                What about if they park in residents own parking bay and then it is not even a Strata issue the poor tenant has to go to civil court to take action against the offender for trespass.

                Can someone comment who lives in a place that has council parking wardens control parking on their strata.

                #21535
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster

                  It’s worse than that: Under the proposals, parking cops will be able to fine residents who have parked over their parking space lines. Tough times ahead for drivers of 2015 4WD monsters who live in 1960s buildings with Morris Minor car spaces.

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #21598
                  Jimmy-T
                  Keymaster

                    Here’s a stern warning (and a very naughty suggestion) from a reader.

                    Jimmy, clamping wheels is a breach of the Impounding Act, and also the Local Government Act. The fine is 20 penalty units (that’s $2,200 + costs in layman’s language) – private or public property.  Not even a copper can do it without a court order unless the car presents imminent danger. Time to warn the strata vigilantes!

                     

                    He goes on …

                     

                    FYI here’s section 651 B of the Local Government Act:

                     

                     

                    And this one’s the Impounding Act – but you have to be an “impounding officer”  – a grand title bestowed upon you by the RMS.

                     

                     

                    And finally …

                     

                    You want a solution that works?

                    Sugar in the fuel tank. 

                    Silent, untraceable and they never come back!

                     

                    Hmmm … yeah.  Sugar in the fuel tank is criminal damage and may be subject to even more severe penalties than clamping.

                    However, you might, as a last desperate resort, try a packet of cafe sugar liberally sprinkled around the petrol cap with a post-it note on the driver’s window saying “Dear Parking Thief, I have put sugar in your petrol tank.  Don’t drive until you have emptied and flushed your tank or you could ruin your engine.” Result:  Much hassle and anguish for the parking thief without breaking the law.   

                    Oh, and I’m going along with the opinion that a clamping by-law gives the owners corp de facto permission to clamp owners and tenants cars until such times as I am proved wrong by an owners corp  being successfully prosecuted.
                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                    #21609
                    mri
                    Flatchatter

                      Can’t you just park them in?  We do that in our building with a note on their windscreen with our number should they wish to move their car… The embarrassment of dealing with an actual person and the inconvenience seem to stop them….

                      #24079
                      Mailbox
                      Flatchatter

                        It seems there are moves afoot to allow local council parking cops onto residential strata property to fine people for “illegal” parking.

                        I would encourage people to really think about this before we go down that road.

                        First it creates an adversarial rather than co-operative approach to a growing problem. 

                        As population densities increase and the problem grows, issuing fines and creating bans will only increase the angst and certainly won’t do anything to solve the problem.

                        We are going to have more cars. Consequently, we will need places to put them.

                        Surely we can come up with something better than handing out pay up notices?

                        #24082
                        Jimmy-T
                        Keymaster

                          And your suggestions are?

                          Sadly, we live in an age where there are people who feel that the definition of right and wrong is what you can get way with.  In strata, that is compounded by a feeling by some people that their circumstances are special or that stupid things like by-laws don’t apply to them.

                          It only takes one or two such people to disrupt the amicable give and take of a civilised strata community.  Who hasn’t parked their car in visitor parking for a brief period when it made sense to do so?  The problem is the people I described above who feel entitled to do what they want when they want.

                          Yes, it’s a shame that we are all suddenly liable to be fined for parking over the lines (for instance) in our own car parks.  But I would imagine council parking inspectors would not be being invited into strata schemes where everyone behaved reasonably and that’s the price we pay for living next door to antisocial a-holes. 

                          However, it is something else we have to threaten the selfish sods with – “park illegally again and we’ll call in the parking wardens.”

                          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                          #24884
                          Mailbox
                          Flatchatter

                            Has there been any clarification of this?

                            Have new rules been introduced?

                            For tenants that may use visitor parking for short periods, discussions could be had with the body corporate for reasonable to prevail.

                            For example, my partner is a nurse working a 24 hour roster. Often she arrives home with no parking available in the street, within a kilometer of our building. She uses the visitor parking to save her walking a long distance from car to home, late at night. One of us then moves the car to the street the next morning when all the business hours people have gone to work.

                            Surely this is reasonable and acceptable?

                            As for commuters using visitor spaces as their personal free all day spaces, fines may be the only answer, but care should be taken to ensure the offending vehicles are correctly targeted. 

                            #24887
                            Jimmy-T
                            Keymaster

                              The laws about visitor parking haven’t changed.  If you have by-laws that prevent it, they will stay the same.  If your building has problems with rogue parking, then the new laws don’t come in until later this year and even then, it’s unlikely to have an immediate effect, if any.

                              In your situation, this ad hoc arrangement will be fine until someone decides it isn’t.  There are no StrataKops patrolling buildings looking for by-law breaches. If nobody in your building objects, then you will be fine.  If and when someone does, you need to think about renting a space from another resident – or parking your car in the street! 

                              The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                              #24888
                              Boronia
                              Flatchatter

                                We have a problem with residents regularly parking in visitor’s spaces.

                                The problem is that it is difficult to determine, and prove, which unit these residents live in. There doesn’t seem to be any easy way to confirm ownership of the vehicle.

                                We are looking at the possibility of fitting lockable barriers to the spaces, and suggesting residents apply to the OC if they want to use them for bona fide guests. Would this be breaching any laws?

                                #24891
                                Small strata wiz
                                Flatchatter

                                  Hi Jimmy T

                                  In one of your above posts, you said “NB: this only applies to owners and tenants.  Visitors can’t be clamped because they haven’t signed up for the by-laws, even by default.”

                                  All of our spaces are properly linemarked, each space has our street number painted in it, and there are signs identifying it as our parking area.

                                  Residents from an adjacent strata property drive into our place and thieve most or all of the parking. Because of the layout of the property, and the position of the entrance at the end of a no-through lane, there’s no easy way we can secure the access or boundary.

                                  Our strata agent manages both properties, and has spoken to the people concerned (as have we, politely), and this worked for about a day. It’s simply more convenient for them to drive 5m into our place than 30m up to their own visitors’ park (at least then they’d be breaching their own by laws). One stated that they have a “right” to park there as their garage is used is for storage…

                                  They’re not only taking the marked spaces, but parking on other common property such as lawns. The irony is that they could legally park in their own garages, or along one side of the public lane.

                                  You seem to be saying that we have to put up with this, at inconvenience to our own residents, and potential risk and liability for the owners. Surely some sort of fine applies if polite requests don’t work?

                                  The only way that I can see is to allocate all the visitor spaces to our own residents (one per lot not on unit share) and then bollard the spaces.

                                  Any thoughts? Thanks.

                                  #24893
                                  Jimmy-T
                                  Keymaster

                                    Allocating visitor spaces to your own residents would be in breach of your development approval.

                                    A better idea might be to devise a by-law with strict set of parameters for use of visitor spaces. Something like maximum three hours in any 24-hour period with the exception of overnights who can’t park before 8pm and must vacate by 8 am.

                                    Then you bollard the visitor spaces and provide keys to any residents who sign a document agreeing to the restriction and pay a refundable key deposit.

                                    When bona fide visitors arrive, the residents use their keys to let them in.

                                    Or you wait for the new laws to come in, print visitor parking permits for your scheme and ask your council rangers to patrol the car park and ticket anyone who is parked in visitors parking without a permit.

                                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
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