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20/11/2012 at 11:28 am #8565Anonymous
I’m still new to this great forum and the finer points of strata living, however I have just made an appointment to inspect our strata records at our strata manager’s office. I am told by a fellow owner resident, that they are are pretty much all over the place and it will be hard work.
I am most interested one or two financial matters among other things, including correspondence for a dispute where the Owners Corporation spent thousands with lawyers.
Should I just turn up and see what I can find? Should I call ahead and mention what I am interested in and ask for it to be set aside? Is the individual strata manager bound to answer questions while I’m there if I ask say, where something is?
And importantly, is there anything I, as an owner, am not allowed to see? -
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21/11/2012 at 8:12 pm #17215
As nobody’s jumped in (yet), here are my comments.
The Strata Managing Agent is working for YOU, so unless they’re complicit in some way in the underhanded activities that I recall you mentioning in an earlier post, there’s absolutely no reason for them to hold back any of the records that they’re holding on YOUR behalf.
That said, it would be fair and reasonable for you to contact your Strata Manager in advance to give them a heads-up concerning precisely what records you’re intetested in. You might consider taking another Owner with you; many hands make light(er) work!
In general terms, your Strata Manager will be holding all your Plan’s financial records, income and expenditure statements, copies of all incoming and outgoing correspondence, copies of any Notices-to-Comply (with By-Laws), and the Agendas and Minutes of General Meetings and of Executive Committee Meetings.
If by chance you experience road-blocks with regard to cooperation by your Strata Managing Agent, then (if you haven’t done so on this occasion) you should seek a further Meeting in writing and under the provisions of S108 of the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act where, as you will be required to make a small payment ($30 for the first hour), you can reasonably expect your Strata Manager to do something in return – like assist you to locate the records that you seek.
22/11/2012 at 4:31 pm #17227AnonymousThanks Whale. Went yesterday. Not exactly ‘complicit in underhanded activities’ as you so elegantly put it, but the Executive Committee and Strata Manager have, I conservatively judge, wasted around $10,000 of Owners Corporation money in three or four different misadventures, I’ll call them, and they really should be called to account. The question I am left with is, “How?” I don’t know. It’s quite scandalous actually and a long story.
The files had almost no correspondence, by the way, and didn’t seem complete with the last two sets of Executive Committee meeting minutes missing. But it’s the finances I’m most worried about.23/11/2012 at 8:07 pm #17234How? Not in an easy way I’d suggest, as I assume from your post that your Owners Corporation (O/C) properly resolved (i.e. at a General Meeting) to spend its funds on legal advice, so whether or not that decision was prudent is of no consequence.
Even if your Executive Committee and your Strata Manager have acted unilaterally on the legal advice/expenses, the Regulation permits them to do s to the extent of $12,500 or $1,000/lot, whichever is the lesser amount.
How? Well as I suggested to another person in a recent post, try to obtain a copy of the Strata Management Agency Agreement that your O/C holds with its Strata Manager and ascertain precisely what they’re required to do, particularly with regard to the keeping of records/correspondence.
If you then believe (still) that they’ve been negligent in their duties, then you should peruse the Agreement to ascertain how that may be rectified under the terms of the Agreement, and if it’s not then rectified, how the Agreement may be terminated.
Remember, its the Secretary of your Executive Committee who must advise the Strata Manager of the O/C’s concerns about negligence, and of the possibility that a member of the O/C (you) will move at General Meeting to terminate the Agreement.
There are ways to possibly achieve all of the above via the Consumer Trader & Tenancy Tribunal, but that in my opinion is even more difficult.
No matter what course you choose, you need to get your Executive Committee on-side OR sufficient of the other Owners to support you in your representations to the Strata Managers and to support any Motion to terminate if that proves to be necessary.
.28/11/2012 at 6:06 pm #17257Talking about looking at documents held by the SM, I have been asked by a friend in a neighbouring strata to lend him our AGM booklet (AGM notification, agenda, accounts & proposed budget produced by the SM) for him to photocopy for comparison. I have seen nothing in it to indicate any copyright or other confidentiality warning. Will it be legal to lend it to him?
Another question is whether I can copy the documents held by the SM when I see them. Any answers?
28/11/2012 at 10:23 pm #17261There is nothing stopping you lending AGM documentation to someone.
You have the right to copy strata records.
29/11/2012 at 5:07 am #17262@daphne diaphanous said:
Talking about looking at documents held by the SM, I have been asked by a friend in a neighbouring strata to lend him our AGM booklet (AGM notification, agenda, accounts & proposed budget produced by the SM) for him to photocopy for comparison. I have seen nothing in it to indicate any copyright or other confidentiality warning. Will it be legal to lend it to him?Daphne, you are lucky to get your information in a booklet. We just get several pages of A4 paper, but it does give the information we need, and our SM answers questions during the AGM.
Another question is whether I can copy the documents held by the SM when I see them. Any answers?
I suspect your SM may charge you for each page copied, as well as for the time taken. I can not imagine you would be able to take original documents away from the office, unless that is why there are so few documents available.
Has your Secretary kept copies of Minutes, correspondence, etc.?
29/11/2012 at 11:51 am #17267Thank you scotlandx.
29/11/2012 at 2:00 pm #17269Dear FlatChatFan, we don’t have a secretary other than the SM himself, even though we do have an EC. I have been discussing this issue & seeking opinions in another topic entitled “chairing an AGM”, in the lead up to our AGM on 24/11/12. It is quite detailed to explain here. Please feel free to read it & give me your opinion and/or advice. I will be seeking to inspect the records held by the SM, as soon as I get a copy of his contract, because I think it will throw up more questions for me ask. Due to the cost involved, I don’t want to have to do it more than once (my husband & I are retirees). I would also like to add (since this forum is funded by SM companies among others) that I don’t have anything against SMs in general. I realise they deal with the nightmarish side of bureaucracy & do it admirably. I also realise that every owner ringing them up demanding answers and/or making complaints & generally whining, would make their businesses unworkable. The way to solve that problem would be to have copies of all of the documents they hold available through a properly run EC & keep notice boards. The more secretive they are, the more curious & suspicious we get, from my own experience & others’ I have read in this forum. In my opinion, no honest business needs to be secretive.
29/11/2012 at 6:18 pm #17274This afternoon I finally asked a long standing member of our EC, whether I could see a copy of the SM’s contract & found -shock, horror- they do not have a copy. My next step is a more formal letter to the SM. I don’t think I should have to pay to see this contract. Any advice anyone?
30/11/2012 at 12:23 pm #17278Oh Daphne …… the more you dig the deeper the hole becomes!
Firstly, The (NSW) legislation the regulates the activities of people in the real estate industry is the Property Stock and Business Agent Act, and that stipulates that copies of “contracts” such as the Strata Management Agency Agreement that your Owners Corporation has with its Strata Manager have to provided to the Executive Committee (E/C) Secretary within 48 hours of being executed.
Similarly, if the Agreement is for longer than 12 months it’s usual for the charging and fee schedules (as a minimum) to be updated at the Plan’s Annual General Meeting, and again a copy of the updated document has to be provided to the Secretary.
Anyway, if the E/C Member/s with whom you’ve spoken don’t have a copy of the Agreement (or can’t find it) then your approach directly to the Strata Manager is correct, and no you shouldn’t have to pay for anything other than for photocopying.
I assume your Plan deals with an established Strata Management Business, so you may do better by writing to the Principal of that Business with a CC to your Strata Manager; sometimes the boss is unaware of grass-roots problems with individual Clients until they loose them.
PS – just read your other post about “chairing an AGM” and noted that your Plan doesn’t have a Secretary. That probably means that there’s no O/C representative noted on the Agreement either, thus giving your Strata Manager carte blanche under delegated authority. All the more reason for you to appraise the Principal with regard to your concerns at a pareto level.
Whale (1315hrs).30/11/2012 at 1:43 pm #17281Dear, dear Whale, you don’t know the half of it. The principal is the papa bear himself, who shoved the junior administering our strata out of the way for the AGM. It is a family business, consisting of father, son & the not so holy mother ghost (or should I say bear?). He has already ignored my written request sent by registered mail on 29/10/12, which included my agenda item for the AGM to remove them from our service. Since the aforesaid item made it into the agenda, there can be no denial of my request for the copy of their contract. I will send another letter on Monday, again by registered mail, giving them until COB next Friday. After that, it is Fair Trading, along with a formal complaint to the licensing body. Mind you, having said all of that, I do not suspect them of any financial fraud. I think, their point of view is to exclude the pesky owners, so they can get on with their business of administering our complex.
As for updating his agreement at the AGM, he gets around it by not changing his fees.
30/11/2012 at 1:56 pm #17282To add to my latest posting in reply to Whale, I will also get a copy of our by-laws from the Land & Property Dept, because I am not satisfied that our copy is the registered document. It consists of only one page, with no identification of our strata, a registration number or a date of registration. Since there is a $500 fee for registering strata by-laws or any subsequent amendments, I would expect to see some acknowledgement of it on the document & all its copies. We are in possession of nothing more than a photocopy of a generic document lifted straight out of the relevant legislation and/or regulation. Please feel free to contribute comments or advice all you knowledgeable Flat Chat fans.
01/12/2012 at 9:49 am #17284On its face, there is nothing wrong with the copy of the by-laws. You wouldn’t expect to see the copy lodged with the Department, notation of fees, registration etc. We have a copy of the by-laws on our notice board that I think dates to the 1970s or 1980s, it just lists the by-laws. Yes it would be reasonable to have the strata plan identified on the document but can I suggest that you focus on substance over form.
Similarly it is not unusual that by-laws are the standard by-laws set out in Schedule 1, that just means the scheme hasn’t put in any additional by-laws. We haven’t, so we just have the standard set. Our scheme dates to1962.
I suggest you not waste time at the Department of Lands at this time, inspect the strata records and then identify any substantial issues. You will be able to to tell from the minutes whether any additional by-laws have been implemented.02/12/2012 at 1:57 pm #17288Thank you scotlandx. I will take your advice & concentrate on the records.
08/12/2012 at 5:03 pm #17340Well, I have now obtained a copy of our SM’s agency agreement & it certainly is a power of attorney of sorts & as I said earlier in this topic, “their point of view is to exclude the pesky owners, so they can get on with their business of administering our complex”.
The agreement was signed & sealed in 2001, yes, 2001, 11 whole years ago & the method of renewal is by accepting the proposed budget at the AGM, which includes their fees. I don’t know how many of the OC realise they’re reviewing & renewing his services in this way. Naturally, the conditions never change, only their fees, which did not happen this year.
My husband & I are of the opinion that by placing the accounts & proposed budget much earlier on the agenda than my motion to discuss their removal from our service, they behaved unethically & we should be able to lodge a valid complaint against them for it. The election of the EC was proposed to be moved to the end of the agenda by the SM at the beginning of the meeting & my husband & I were the only dissenters. Providing me with a copy of the agency agreement well after the AGM, despite my request 4 weeks earlier, made sure I could not object to the order of my agenda item. Any opinions, anyone?
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