Flat Chat Strata Forum Living in strata Current Page

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  • #9797
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      I have just sat through my first Fair Trading mediation, holding the hand of a friend who had raised a complaint, and I can now confirm what Flat Chat readers have been telling me for years:  it’s a lottery that depends way too much on the calibre of the person in the middle.

      I can’t go into detail but suffice it to say it was an issue about neighbour noise.  My friend’s strata manager was there and the other party was at the end of the phone.

      After the preambles, the mediator asked the strata manager to present his case and it all went awry almost immediately.

      Strata Manager:  “The complaint is about excessive noise and …”

      Mediator: “So this is about the level of noise?”

      SM: “It’s not just about the level of noise, it’s when it occurred.”

      M: “So it’s the time of the noise?”

      SM: “Yes …”

      M: “Not so much the level …”

      SM: “It’s the level and the time … it was from late-night parties.”

      M: “Make up your mind. Everyone is entitled to have a party occasionally, especially in that area.”

      It went rapidly downhill from there.  I was told off for interrupting then, bizarrely, rebuked for not speaking up when I rolled my eyes (because the other party wouldn’t be able to see me).

      Eventually, my friend, the strata manager and the noisy neighbour ignored the umpire and came to an amicable and workable solution.

      It could have been a deliberate tactic to get us talking to each other but I doubt it, as the mediator was now sitting back, sulking.

      Maybe that was because, tired of hearing by-laws dismissed in favour of what was “acceptable” in the big city, I told her that everyone on our side had a pretty good idea about strata law and how things were supposed to work.

      “So you know more than me?” she said.

      At least she could see my shrug of “you said it, I didn’t”.

      Have you had good, bad or indifferent experiences at a Fair Trading mediation? Have your say on the Flat Chat Forum.

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
    Viewing 9 replies - 1 through 9 (of 9 total)
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    • #22577
      Whale
      Flatchatter

        …and I thought I was the only one who got a mediator off-side!

        Whilst there’s no legislative requirement for those involved in Strata disputes to attend mediation, the Adjudicators take a dim-view of any party to a dispute that has not first attempted it.

        So in my opinion it’s a bit of a faux job-creation exercise for those mediators employed by the NSW Department of Fair Trading (DFT), “faux” because despite the fact that people in the Strata Division of the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal  will actively point the parties in the direction of the DFT, there are other options for Strata dwellers to fulfill their obligation to attempt mediation.

        I’m referring to services provided by the NSW Community Justice Centre, the NSW Law Society, and to a lesser extent the websites of Professional Associations that provide a search facility to enable parties to locate trained private-sector mediators who specialise in strata / community disputes and whose time-based fees may facilitate a quick resolution.

        Slightly off-topic, but I wonder when those Special and General Members of the Tribunal who hear the majority of matters will need to hold formal legal qualifications and have relevant experience as opposed to just being able, to “represent a sector of the public in relation to any one or more classes of matters in respect of which the Tribunal has jurisdiction”.

        As someone who could, in a totally unbiased way of course, represent that sector comprising owners corporations, I could qualify as a General Member; how silly is that? Answer…..very, which to some extent explains why the current system of adjudication is broken, and consequently why it’s so underutilised.

        #22578
        Sir Humphrey
        Strataguru

          For what it is worth, I have had generally good impressions of the ACT’s equivalent, the ACT Civil and Administrative Tribunal. I have been involved in 7 matters, on each occasion as an EC member. I have generally been impressed with the way the tribunal member conducted the mediation and/or hearing. On two of those occasions we were represented by a solicitor because the matter was sufficiently serious that we had to get it right. Only on the most minor matter was I unimpressed with the tribunal member. Ironically, he was the most senior ACAT member we encountered.

          The matter was very straightforward. A unit owner had erected a fence that enclosed an area of common property. It was understandable that the owner had thought that it was part of the unit area but the unit plan showed unequivocally that it was not. We had decided to deal with all three instances of unit owners enclosing common property at the same time in the same way. The other two units were, by chance, about to change hands and these were resolved when the new owners removed the unapproved fences, having been made aware of the situation while they were purchasing. The third owner was not selling at that time and dug in his heels. The ‘breach of rules’, properly notified, therefore became, automatically, an ‘ACAT dispute’. 

          The ACAT member did not appear to have read our application and asked why the EC could not just compromise and let the unit owner keep the fence and the enclosed bit of common property. I was astonished to have to explain that the Act says that gaining exclusive use of an area of common property is generally a ‘special privilege’ and that requires an unopposed resolution of a general meeting.  [There is an exception in the ACT legislation whereby the EC can grant a ‘minor’ use, subject to various conditions, but the EC had decided that those conditions would not be met in this instance.]

          Aside from that example, the ACAT members have been diligent, shrewd and very fair in my experience. 

          #22580
          PSG

            I had a similar experience last year when I, too, did the hand-holding thing. My friend, a Chinese Australian with a good grasp of English but not confident in a public forum, has owned an investment unit for some years.

            A few years ago, with the full knowledge of the body corporate, my friend renovated her first floor unit, replacing the carpet with floor boards and upgrading the bathroom and kitchen. The unit has been consistently rented to a succession of tenants with no complaints received or problems encountered.

            And then the ground floor unit immediately beneath my friend’s apartment changed hands, the new owner moved in, and the fun began! From that moment on, my friend received a barrage of complaints about the noise emanating from her unit. The complainant stated that he likes to retire at 9pm and could not cope with any sound whatsoever after that time (yes, you might wonder why such a sensitive sole would contemplate life in an apartment). He was adamant that someone was clattering across the timber floor in high heels late at night, banging doors, and generally disrupting his lifestyle. He was also adamant that the timber floors had been installed without the appropriate insulation (not true – my friend had already provided an acoustic certificate to the strata manager and body corporate) and without permission from the body corporate (my friend had been advised in writing by the strata manager that the ‘committee is not required to provide approval’, but had nevertheless asked the EC for feedback as a courtesy. At that time, there were several other owners who had already replaced the carpets in their units with timber flooring. The EC therefore expressed no concern at my friend’s plans.)

            The complaints continued over several months with much associated email correspondence. My friend decided the best way to fix the problem was to compromise – she placed a large rug in the room above the complainant’s bedroom. The complainant was still not satisfied – his sole aim appeared to be to force my friend to replace the timber floors with carpet.

            And then one day the strata manager issued a breach notice. How is it that a breach notice can be issued on the strength of one person’s word against another? And why is it the responsibility of the receiver of the breach notice to prove their innocence? Guilty until proved innocent perhaps?

            To cut this already long story a touch shorter, the to-ing and fro-ing by email continued, and it was then that my friend asked me to help. I’ve no expertise in strata law but do live in an area governed by a Community Association. I’ve been the chair of the CA EC for a number of years and have some experience dealing with the trials and tribulations of community living. We decided it would be best to pay for ‘professional’ mediation at Fair Trading to sort my friend’s problem once and for all.

            At mediation I met for the first time with the complainant and the Chairperson of the Body Corporate EC. Over the course of the dispute period, the Chairperson had been expressing her sympathy for my friend’s predicament. However, on the day of mediation, she appeared to have switched her alliance! It was two against two!

            The complainant shouted his way through the process, with the odd jibe from the Body Corporate Chairperson adding fuel to the fire. The complainant protested that my facial expressions (possibly the odd eye roll but more likely a look of horror at his appalling behaviour) were intimidating him. The mediator chided me for being unhelpful, but despite consistent yelling and table thumping from the complainant, and my request that she ask him to stop, he was allowed to continue uninterrupted.

            It was pretty apparent that the mediator was well and truly intimidated by his objectionable behaviour.

            In summary, the mediation session was a complete waste of time and money. The mediator was certainly not equipped to manage the complainant’s offensive behaviour and, as she’d clearly stated she wasn’t in a position to give advice, the whole thing seemed a pointless and unproductive exercise.

            After that session, my friend, who is generally very mild mannered and accommodating, was very angry and more convinced than ever that the complainant was in the wrong and she in the right. She was not prepared to budge an inch. And so the drama continues.

            How unpleasant for all concerned and, it would appear there’s no cut and dried solution.

            #22585
            Mailbox
            Flatchatter

              Jimmy first of all good piece of work in your article.

              But l would like to draw your attention that there is no real fighting of laws around governance of managing strata fee’s by developers in the first instance so this is where it should be addressed as part of the develop,met in the first instance.

              That strata fees must be standardised as to their application.

              Typically developers will:

              – do the bare minimum in insuring the property complex, this should be standardised  to ensure new owners are covered at a real cost of strata fee’s.

              – the sinking fund component is a low guess by developers

              Developers should be made to:

              – have a sinking fund component is audited before the developer can sell to ensure an actuary has signed off on estimates to be reflective of a true calculation. That where a developer incorrectly omits this then there is legal recourse in law to go after them at the developers cost.

              – have strata fee’s to be in line/reflect with similar built  complexes in the area as compared to age, size and facilities.

              – get quotations from local Australian registered companies to cover all maintenance items for a complex should be part of the selling document so buyers can see when quotes were done, cost for the complex and how this is broken down to yearly strata fee’s.

              – that a full occupancy certificate must be included before any sale commences to stop building work being carried around new owners, which is currently allowed or done by overseas developers.

              – that developers deviations from the original plan to which they are selling off the plan, which includes fittings in apartments should allow a buyer to opt out of the contract if these changes are more than 20% of the design change to the building to which the purchaser is purchased and if internal changes are more than 15% changes to internal fittings or lesser quality fittings supplied allows the purchaser to opt out or get an independent report to allow for a discount to cover changes to lesser quality Fittings.

              #22602

              Brief mention has been made of the mediation fascioity of NSW “Community Justice Centres ” (part of NSW Attorney General and Justice Department).

              They have been providing FREE co-mediation (two mediators) sessions,anywhere throughout NSW at convenient venues and times,all to suit attendees.( since the early 1980’s).

              With a success rate of over 85%,mediators are highly experienced (in mediation that is).They do not offer “opinions” nor give “advice”,but simply assist the parties to identify areas of conflict and help them work toward a “settlement” that they both can live with,getting on with their lives,without conflict.

              The areas/matters at issue are not the problem,what is, the willingness of each to listen (politely- preferred) ,begin to understand why the other party disagrees over what issues,then as directed by  experienced co -mediators,discuss how they can be settled or best accommodated.

              Co mediators,”may” have considerable experience in the issues ,but will never offer advice or promote a solution,this can only come from the parties attending.                                                                                                   

              Any agreement is that only of what the parties attending mediation have agreed.Is it “technically correct? legally binding? staement only of facts?” Yes or No,is not he point.What is ,that the parties have an agreement,something they themselves have “nutted out”,something they can live with.

              Parties are encouraged to agree to return to Community Justice Centre mediation If there if there is any problem with the workability of the agreement terms.

              One basic diffence with DFT mediation is, at CJC both parties must agree to attend,neither can be compelled.Parties attending should be all those that can help in working toward settlement .Both arties will be asked to agree with proposed attendees.

              This is not a “paid” advertisement” for CJC but simply an endorsement of what is on offer in NSW.It would be interesting to hear from any Flat Chat members who have used this fascility,particularly on real estate, neighbour or sSmiletrata matters .

                                                                                                        

                            

                  

              #22848
              Millie
              Flatchatter

                Hello Flat Chatters
                I’ve just raised a couple of issues with NSW Fair Trading, all to do with those in charge of our Strata Scheme and what they have failed to do.
                The Strata Schemes Management Act is really clear and reading what is stated in black and white it is obvious to this simple soul that our Strata Manager, the Executive Committee and the Building Manager are in pretty clear breach of sections of the Act.
                Fair Trading says though that the matters I have raised can only be dealt with by the Owners Corporation and that they are not able to provide further assistance.
                Please: who is responsible for overseeing and, when necessary, enforcing what is required under the Strata Schemes Management Act?
                Thanks

                #22849
                Jimmy-T
                Keymaster
                Chat-starter

                  You have possible redress under section 138 of the Act which relates to the “General power of (an) Adjudicator to make orders to settle disputes or rectify complaints”.Subsection 1 says this:

                  (1)  An Adjudicator may make an order to settle a dispute or complaint about: (a)  an exercise of, or a failure to exercise, a function conferred or imposed by or under this Act or the by-laws in relation to a strata scheme, or (b)  the operation, administration or management of a strata scheme under this Act.

                  Subsection 2 says this:

                  (2) For the purposes of subsection (1), an owners corporation or building management committee is taken to have failed to exercise a function if:

                  (a) it decides not to exercise the function, or (b) application is made to it to exercise the function and it fails for 2 months after the making of the application to exercise the function in accordance with the application or to inform the applicant that it has decided not to exercise the function in accordance with the application.

                  So you need to specify the function that the executive committee has failed to exercise – and that has to be couched in terms of either your by-laws or the Act and then apply for an NCAT ruling on section 138.

                  That said, there has to be a clear failure to fulfil specific responsibilities required by the Act or in by-laws.  The EC not doing what you consider to be the right thing, when there is no legal or quasi-legal requirement for them to do so, simply won’t fly.

                  The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                  #22851
                  Millie
                  Flatchatter

                    Thank you Jimmy T.

                    I quoted exactly this – Section 138 – to Fair Trading plus also the Section on Minutes of EC Meetings (7 days to distribute).  Fair Trading have told me to go back to the Owners Corp.  The Dept appears not to want to act on these two issues, plus failure to comply with Section 119 (notification of leases), plus exclusive use/occupation of Common Property by the Caretaker without License, plus numerous other issues covered under the Act.  

                    The SSMA is my reference tool yet I can’t get Fair Trading to acknowledge any discrepancy between what is in the Act and what is in play in our Scheme.

                    All I really want is for NSW Legislation to be adhered to in relation to where I live.  Alas, no help at all from Fair Trading.  There has to be justice somewhere.

                    I have been through the process of Mediation (respondents declined to attend) and Adjudication with the CTTT and NCAT.   Futher issues keep cropping up.

                    I have completely run out of options.

                    #22852
                    Jimmy-T
                    Keymaster
                    Chat-starter

                      I’m not sure what you are seeking here.  Fair Trading doesn’t offer rulings or adjudications, or impose penalties.  In a strata dispute they merely provide advice and mediation which is a compulsory step before seeking an adjudication at NCAT.

                      If you are unhappy with an NCAT adjudication, you can appeal it provided it is on a question of law.

                      It’s not clear whether or not you have followed the procedure outlined elsewhere, whereby you send a letter or place a motion on the next EC or AGM agenda, requesting that specific functions be fulfilled.

                      Failure or refusal to fulfil these functions triggers the mediation/adjudication process at Fair Trading then NCAT.

                      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
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