Flat Chat Strata Forum Living in strata Current Page

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  • #8981
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      In about a month we will know whether we are going to get the gee-whiz, super dooper National Broadband Network favoured by Mr Rudd, or the state-of-the-art (until it becomes two tin cans and a piece of string) version preferred by Mr Abbott.

      But whichever service survives the Federal election, strata schemes will get it whether they want it or not. The same legislation that allowed cable TV providers to cable right up to the front door of strata buildings could be used, if necessary, to plug your building into the national network.

      Now, that’s not a sinister as it might seem, since NBN establishes the infrastructure and you still get to choose who your internet and phone service provider is.   But literature on the roll-out says that Owners Corps don’t need to approve the installation (as they would with any other changes to common property).  What that really means is that they can’t stop it.

      Again, the intention is to be a bit more ‘softly-softly’ than that. NBN contractors will make a number of approaches to your owners corp, building manager or strata manager to try to arrange times for inspection and installation.

      However, if they are ignored or rebuffed by your executive committee, they will be able to force the issue, go and get orders and hook you up anyway.

      On the positive side, this will happen for free in buildings that register in advance.  And unless your scheme is dominated by Game of Thrones fans whose preferred method of communication is to send ravens, high-speed broadband is surely not a bad thing.

      There are apartment blocks in our major cities that are already hooked up, including several in Melbourne and off-the plan developments like Divercity in Alexandria and Tempo in Mascot, both Sydney. Developers of these new projects presumably see the NBN as a positive asset that enhances the value of their apartments.

      Currently Strata Community Australia (the strata managers’ industry group) is working with NBN Co to identify buildings that actively want the broadband connection when it comes into their area. Your owners corp or strata manager can register for the scheme online (see below).

      But what about individual apartments?  There is some debate about whether the cable will just come to the building or will be ‘backboned’ to each floor.

      Smart strata managers are already advising buildings to come up with a plan now, and some are even suggesting compulsory cabling into to each apartment.

      Why? It could be argued that the NBN is as basic a service as water, electricity or phone lines and that the owners corp is obliged to provide it throughout the building. And, as we know in strata, anything that could be argued, will be argued.

      However, if individual owners decide at different times that they want the service, that’s a lot of disruption to walls and ceilings.   Some owners corps might decide to side-step the infighting, CTTT hearings and court cases while enhancing the value of their building as a whole and just cable up.

      It could be easier to tell owners it’s coming in, whether they like it or not.

      Go HERE to find links to the NBNs interactive map of where the cabling is, where it’s arriving soon and where it’s a few years away.  You’ll also find links to the NBN website, and SCA’s information and NBN registration pages.

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
    Viewing 15 replies - 1 through 15 (of 19 total)
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    • #19212
      Austman
      Flatchatter

        It’s going to be an important issue.

        But NBNCo has for a long time virtually ignored MDUs (multi-dwelling units).

        There are some situations like new builds and high rises (with service accessible service ducting) where MDU connections to the NBN might be relatively straightforward.

        But the question of how internal cabling can be done for the thousands of older mid-sized apartment buildings is not well addressed.  This is because they are probably going to be too big for individual stand-alone NBN connections but also probably too small to have all the accessible service ducting infrastructure that large (eg high-rise) complexes might have.

        It’s usually straight forward enough to get the NBN cable to the building itself.  But getting the distribution to apartments from there is the problem, and why MDUs have basically, until now, been ignored by the NBN – put in the “too hard” basket.  There is is still precious little information available on what internal MDU options are possible, or more importantly, allowed.   The prospect of running new cables all over the common property is not exactly appealing to owners corporations but it’s even less appealing to be pulling off CP plaster, running cables and then replacing and repainting it all.  A solution that allowed the existing building telephone cables (a bit like the Liberal’s suggestion) or the TV distribution system or some type of local wi-fi would be easier to install.

        It’s a similar thing with the Optus/Foxtel cable.  Unless an OC agrees to sometimes quite extensive internal cabling demands (the back-bone),  the OC is forced to take a satellite solution – which also has cabling demands, but not as many so it sometimes it can even be integrated into existing cabling.

        Still, it’s going to happen!  But exactly how seems still to be a bit of a mystery.

        #19217
        Jimmy-T
        Keymaster
        Chat-starter

          @Austman said:
          It’s going to be an important issue. But NBNCo has for a long time virtually ignored MDUs (multi-dwelling units) …

          But the question of how internal cabling can be done for the thousands of older mid-sized apartment buildings is not well addressed.  

          That’s why the smart older buildings (or their smart strata managers) are already making plans for when the cable finally gets to their front doors. I think any Owners Corp that tries to put this in the ‘too-hard” basket will pay a price, literally, when their block is the only one in their neighbourhood that doesn’t have NBN.

          In the unlikely event of my ever being  chair of an owners corp, I would be talking to the strata manager now to set out the requirements my building had – including getting the cable at least to every level of the block – so that when NBNCo comes knocking, they’ll do what we want rather than the other way round.

          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
          #19219
          Austman
          Flatchatter

            The problem is we don’t know what NBNCo wants!   Or more importantly what they will allow.  Because that will very much decide on how it can be connected in medium sized apartment blocks.

            If we look at the Optus/Foxtel example, they simply dictated what they wanted in a ‘take-it-or-leave” manner.  No back-bone to their exact standards meant no Foxtel for you.  Optus were even harder to deal with.

            Our building was just 1 year old when we tried to get Foxtel connected – with the cable just outside our door.  We had a brand new TV distribution system, even cables going to any future satellite dishes on the roof.

            Foxtel sent their techs and gave it the thumbs down.   It didn’t meet their standards.   They refused a cable connection and said we had to go satellite.  Even then they refused to use out new cabling. We had to run a new back-bone – which we managed to do in a less than perfect way (and we still are not allowed Foxtel IQ).  Anything else would have been enormously expensive or ugly.

            So I’d want to be pretty sure about what NBNCo will require before doing too much installation.  They might end up behaving like Optus/Foxtel and have pretty strict requirements.

            #19221
            Austman
            Flatchatter

              Just to add, you only have to Google “nbn multi-dwelling units” to see just how little information is out there for OCs and to realise that apartment buildings have been very much a secondary consideration, so far,  for the NBN roll out.

              But that has to change!

              #19258
              Austman
              Flatchatter

                Got an email from our OC managers yesterday that included info about the NBN!

                https://www.vbcs.com.au/pdf/NBN%20Roll%20Out%20NBN.pdf

                But, as you can see, it’s all rather big on spin and small on detail. 

                Still,it does at least show that NBN Co will be going down the same track as Bigpond/Foxtel/Optus did – in that they will leave the internal building connections to a “construction partner”.

                I think all OCs should check on the NBN Co website for when your area will be connected.  If it’s like my OC and not even in a “construction starts within 3 years” area (together with huge parts of central Melbourne!), then I think it would be unwise for an OC to invest too much time/money/effort in NBN at this stage.  By the time NBN eventually comes along, the options,  methods and technologies of how it will connected inside your building are likely to be different to what’s on offer today.

                 

                 

                 

                #19266
                Austman
                Flatchatter

                  I’ve found out a bit about what NBN Co will want in new MDUs (ie apartments): NBN-NO-GDE-0011 section 6.2 says see NBN-TE-CTO-284 which says “Provision of a minimum of P23mm nominal inside diameter, white, rigid communications conduit with draw string, from either the telecommunications room or riser/closet location to each NTD location.”  The NTD is the device inside each apartment that eg a router will connect to.

                  So separate 23mm (ca 25mm outside) individual conduits to each apartment is what they want.. and it may well turn out to be a similar requirement in existing MDUs!  But that information still seems vague.

                  How to run those conduits at reasonable cost and impact (they might look pretty ugly) is what OC’s might have to decide unless other solutions that use existing cables (eg telephone cables) are eventually permitted.

                  #19284
                  Austman
                  Flatchatter

                    The way I understand it, if you are in a house you will get NBN FTTH (fibre to the home) for free. The same might apply for some types of MDUs (eg townhouses) where an individual connection is possible. But if you live in an apartment block, and in some urban areas over 80% of people do, then FTTH will not be free for you. The OC will have to pay for the internal installation which will have to be done to NBN Co’s exact specifications.

                    And once the NBN comes into an apartment’s area, the OC will have little choice but to connected it because all the existing phone and internet services will be switched off 18 months later.

                    NBN Co – National Broadband Network – Australia | Apartments, townhouses, office buildings and the NBN

                    So the connection is hardly going to be cost equitable. Apartment owners will have to pay for what home owners can get for free.

                    #19286
                    Whale
                    Flatchatter

                      ……and if the Coalition wins the Federal Election, then conceivably the Plan’s existing “backbone” would be utilised to deliver the NBN from the “node” to those Lots that want it; personally I’m happy with wireless.

                      #19287
                      Austman
                      Flatchatter

                        ……and if the Coalition wins the Federal Election, then conceivably the Plan’s existing “backbone” would be utilised to deliver the NBN from the “node” to those Lots that want it; personally I’m happy with wireless.

                         

                        It’ll be interesting to see…  Many think that due to all the signed contracts it will cost a fortune for the FTTH to be changed to FTTN.

                        But a FTTN like system would be ideal for OC’s.  Where the “node” is located on Common Property – eg near the existing MDF (where the existing telephone cables are connected).  And from the “node”, for the short distance to each unit, existing infrastructure (eg the phone line)  is used. 

                        Unfortunately, that’s not what seems to be planned for OC’s at the moment.

                        #19290
                        Jimmy-T
                        Keymaster
                        Chat-starter

                          @Austman said:
                          The way I understand it, if you are in a house you will get NBN FTTH (fibre to the home) for free. The same might apply for some types of MDUs (eg townhouses) where an individual connection is possible. But if you live in an apartment block, and in some urban areas over 80% of people do, then FTTH will not be free for you. The OC will have to pay for the internal installation which will have to be done to NBN Co’s exact specifications.

                          And once the NBN comes into an apartment’s area, the OC will have little choice but to connected it because all the existing phone and internet services will be switched off 18 months later.

                          NBN Co – National Broadband Network – Australia | Apartments, townhouses, office buildings and the NBN

                           

                          Austman, I just had a look at that link (thanks for that) and this is what it says:

                          NBN Co plans to connect all apartments within the NBN’s fibre coverage areas. These apartment buildings and other multi-dwelling units will often be connected slightly later than stand-alone houses in a fibre area.

                          This is due to the additional work needed for multi-dwelling units in terms of liaison between NBN Co and the body corporate, and the more extensive internal cabling within the building.

                          NBNCo are talking about hooking up apartments, not buildings.  Where did you read that Owners Corps will have to pay for backboning themselves.  My understanding is that NBN Co will pay for installation to the communication hubs on each floor of an apartment (where your phone lines are now) unless the Owners Corp refuses them access.

                          The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                          #19289
                          Austman
                          Flatchatter

                            JimmyT said 

                              Austman, I just had a look at that link (thanks for that) and this is what it says:

                            NBN Co plans to connect all apartments within the NBN’s fibre coverage areas. These apartment buildings and other multi-dwelling units will often be connected slightly later than stand-alone houses in a fibre area. This is due to the additional work needed for multi-dwelling units in terms of liaison between NBN Co and the body corporate, and the more extensive internal cabling within the building.

                            NBNCo are talking about hooking up apartments, not buildings.  Where did you read that Owners Corps will have to pay for backboning themselves.  My understanding is that NBN Co will pay for installation to the communication hubs on each floor of an apartment (where your phone lines are now) unless the Owners Corp refuses them access.

                            You could be right JimmyT.  There just doesn’t seem to be exact information out there.  I can say that with Bigpond/Foxtel/Optus connections it was at the OC’s expense.  I know because we had to pay – when it was free (or often free) to houses.

                            And there is still the installation from the “hub” to the apartment.  From what I can find that’s the 23mm (25mm external) conduits.  In our building we don’t have hubs at all – just an MDF in the basement and copper phone lines from there to each apartment.  1,000s of smaller building are like that.  If we have to pay for the installation from our MDF to each apartment – that’s going to be expensive.

                            #19291
                            Jimmy-T
                            Keymaster
                            Chat-starter

                              I think this is precisely why the Strata Community Australia strata managers are urging buildings to firstly register for hook-up and secondly devise a plan so that they are ready to go when the NBN arrives.

                              To be honest, however, it looks like after September 7 we will be looking at the two tin cans and a piece of string option favoured by Mr Abbott (but not, I suspect, loved by his communications minister Mr Turnbull).  

                              The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                              #19292
                              kiwipaul
                              Flatchatter

                                @Austman said:

                                And once the NBN comes into an apartment’s area, the OC will have little choice but to connected it because all the existing phone and internet services will be switched off 18 months later.

                                The rate a which mobile phones / broardband is increaseing it might be the time to dump your phone line entirely when this happens. I agree in new building it can be installed efficiently cost wise but for older building it could cost a fortune to be benefit of very few. I do have a phone line (at the mo) but I use mobile broardband for internet access and it is more than adequate for my needs.

                                I wonder how many people actually need this super fast home internet. The gov seems very reluctant to inform us of how many have actually taken it up after  it has been installed in their area (I suspect very few).

                                #19294
                                Kangaroo
                                Flatchatter

                                  OK, just had my first call from a friend who has switched to NBN, so let’s sum up …

                                  Each NBN optical fiber, which is thinner than a human hair and can carry 40,000 simultaneous telephone conversations, needs a 23mm conduit to each household.

                                  Compared to your current 110mm x 70mm telephone wallplate, you will get a 180mm x 125mm NBN box.

                                  Which must be near a power point.

                                  But it can’t be behind furniture, because you need to look at the indicator lights.

                                  You also need a UPS, which is about the same size, so two big boxes on the wall.

                                  You need the UPS because, unlike copper wire, there’s no electric current in the fiber, so your corded phone now won’t work in a power outage, for instance to call 000 to report the fallen tree that cut off your power.

                                  But the NBN UPS will only power the NBN box. Your corded phone will then work in a power outage, but not your cordless phone.

                                  It’s not compulsory to connect to the NBN, but copper wire telephone and ADSL services will be switched off 18 months after NBN is installed in your area.

                                  Optical fiber communications can’t be tapped, except that GCHQ and NSA does that in spite of the “facts”.

                                  And NBN doesn’t have clue-one how it’s going to be implemented in multi-dwelling units (25% of the population) or how much it will cost.

                                  Can’t wait!

                                  Suggestions:

                                  1) Don’t invest in a copper mine. There’s gonna be a lot of recycled copper coming on to the market.

                                  2) Cancel your CND (calling number display). A call from a VOIP user (maybe 50% of NBN customers) doesn’t send it.

                                  How the hell are we going to explain all this to the elderly pensioners who’ve downsized to a strata unit and already think the Secretary is a janitor who is available at a moment’s notice to come and get their tin of cat food down from the high shelf for their dinner?

                                  Perhaps they should all be shipped off to a retirement home where there’s a red phone box from which they are permitted to make one call to family per week.

                                  Sorry for that, most of you probably don’t know what a red phone box is.

                                  #19296
                                  Austman
                                  Flatchatter

                                    Interesting article here: https://www.zdnet.com/au/conroy-claims-first-major-apartment-block-is-nbn-ready-7000015529/

                                    It’s not such an issue installing the NBN in new developments.  It’s of course the existing apartment blocks that are the big problem for the NBN. It seems NBN Co themselves wanted a “fibre to the basement and existing copper wires from there” solution but the government rejected it.  If a change of government happens then things might become different.

                                    From the link:

                                    “As to existing apartment buildings, Conroy claims the NBN Co is going to deliver fibre to all of those premises — battling with body corporates, drilling holes in apartment walls, nailing conduit to the side of the building if there is no room in the riser … oh, it will be a fun old time running FttP into every apartment in Australia.”

                                    Heavens!!

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