Flat Chat Strata Forum Neighbour noise Current Page

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  • #8475

    There is noise in strata units that is a difficult problem.  I am referring to deliberate thumping and knocking over our bedroom coming from a neighbour above.  This occurs in the early hours of the morning between 2.00 a.m. and 3.30 a.m.  When they are aware we are trying to sleep in because they see our newspaper still not collected from the drive they then thump over our bedroom to deliberately wake us.  This is in a two unit scheme.  The noise is malicious because of a dispute over long overdue repairs and the dispute is still before the Tribunal. My lawyer has pointed out that taking the owner to the CTTT can be risky.  This is because although the Tribunal should be making their decisions on the “balance of probability” they have in fact in many cases being making their decisions on the criminal “beyond reasonable doubt”.  How do you prove the noise at those hours of the early morning? You need evidence of the noise.  How can you ask your family or friends who all work come and stay and have disrupted sleep?  As the noise is intermittent they would have to stay for a week at least.  We have called the police in the early hours of the morning when the noise has been unbearable. By the time the police arrive of course there is no noise.  The police do not want to know.    They said they have “to hear” the noise before they can make a noise abatement order.  The same applies to the local council.  We are now considering hiring a private surveillance operative who will come and sit all night in our unit to make a record of the noise.  This is going to cost thousands of dollars!  We should not have to do this.

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  • #16847
    Jimmy-T
    Keymaster

      OK, do you have a “smart phone” with a voice recording facility.  If not, go HERE and look at your options to by a simple digital recorder.

      Set the recorder up with the correct time and date and then send your neighbour a note that says something like “I am obliged to inform you that we are now recording noise disturbance from your apartment with a view to providing evidence in pursuit of a Noise Abatement Order from the District Court. The recordings will be date and time-stamped.”

      Now, I don’t know if you actually are obliged to do that but it may have the desired effect of gatting them to pull their heads in.

      But a threat isn’t a threat if you aren’t prepared to follow through with it, so be prepared to start recording when the noise starts.  It would help if you were to say quietly what time of the morning it is and then let the recording run till the noise stops.

      If this doesn’t work, then go to your District Court and apply for a Noise Abatement Order.  You’ll find more information about that here.

      Just one word of caution: this could exacerbate the problem – it may get worse before it gets better – but if you do get the order and they continue to make the noise, they are in breach of a court order and that is a criminal rather than a civil matter.

      The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
      #16851
      sjl

        @JimmyT said:

        OK, do you have a “smart phone” with a voice recording facility.  If not, go HERE and look at your options to by a simple digital recorder.

        You could also get a simple microphone and connect it to your PC. A recording at a far higher quality than you are likely to need (mono, 22,000 samples per second, 16 bits per sample – like I said, almost certainly far better quality than is necessary, but overkill is better than underkill), uncompressed, for ten hours will weigh in at about 1.5 GB. You can then transcode to MP3, which will be much smaller. I would record the date and time at the start of each clip, and let it run uninterrupted. Enough of those clips showing the noise should be enough to demonstrate malicious intent.

        Good luck.

        #16852
        Anonymous

          Unfortunately, as this is a good idea, I believe it is illegal to record people without their permission.

          #16853
          Jimmy-T
          Keymaster

            Without their permission or without their knowledge? That’s why I suggested sending them a note. I know you can’t record a telephone conversation without permission either given or implied, but the recording of footsteps, thumps and bumps? I think we’re on safe ground.

            The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
            #16854
            scotlandx
            Strataguru

              Yes, you can, and you don’t need their permission. You’re not recording a conversation, you’re recording a noise.

              #16855

              It is not illegal to record the voice or noise from another person, it is only illegal to use this as evidence in court against them as in recording a confession to a murder etc.  I used a dictaphone to record verbal abuse from another owner in my strata plan (as well as video surveillance cameras but that’s another story).  The Police told me I should inform the owners at the time I am recording them (not necessarily beforehand) but when it got to court, the Magistrate told me that he will ‘hear’ evidence on a dictaphone of the verbal abuse & that I did not need their permission to record them.  I don’t know if this was just this particular Magistrate’s decision on the day but this owner used to say to me, while I was recording, “You can’t record my voice” which, of course, proved they knew they were being recorded anyway – ha!  I think the best way to know is to ask the people you intend to take it to eg the OFT or CTTT as in what evidence they will hear.  If you ask the Police for advice, I’d ask a number of different officers as the answers can differ.  A Solicitor could give better advice & you can get free advice on simple matters like this through your local community.  Hope this helps.

              #16861
              Jimmy-T
              Keymaster

                This is a tried and tested method for proving a noise issue.  The problem only arises when you are recording conversations without the person’s knowledge and then try to use that as evidence in a court case or in some other way that impacts on them (like putting it on YouTube or Facebook). 

                I only suggested sending them a note alerting them to the fact that their noise would be recorded as a way of sending them a warning without it being an obvious threat.

                As the examples on here have shown, you can do it and use it as evidence and if you’ve sent them a note telling them that you plan to record their thumps rather than their chats, they really have no comeback now or when it goes to court.

                The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                #16864
                Anonymous

                  A post below says: “If you ask the Police for advice, I’d ask a number of different officers as the answers can differ.  A Solicitor could give better advice & you can get free advice on simple matters like this through your local community.”

                  Surely you are either legally allowed to record someone in NSW, or you are NOT legally allowed to record them without their permission because it is against the law.

                  Which is it, please, before we get someone arrested?

                  I read a while back, in the newspaper I think, that people can be filmed, say with CCTV for example, but cannot be recorded unless they knew they were being recorded.

                  #16868
                  Jimmy-T
                  Keymaster

                    Mortica said:

                    Surely you are either legally allowed to record someone in NSW, or you are NOT legally allowed to record them without their permission because it is against the law.

                    It’s not a simple as yes or no – there are circumstances where you can record and others where you can’t.  Even so, your question has already been answered in my last post.

                    Nobody is going to be arrested for recording noise they can hear in their own homes. Also, recorded noise is accepted as evidence in legal actions about noise in strata buildings.

                    It’s only recorded conversations that would be a problem – and even then there are circumstances where it is allowed (see below).

                    It’s worth noting, however, that if you have security video surveillance in your building, you must have signs up alerting visitors – not so much for privacy law reasons but for Work Health and Safety issues.  Obviously your security camera should not be recording audio too.

                    The blog privatei.com.au has a very handy rundown of the laws in different states HERE. In an extract from the section on NSW, it says:

                    “If you’re listening to anything other than a private conversation the use of a listening device is not prohibited.”

                    By listening device, it also means a recording device of any kind. On the question of overheard conversations, the item says:

                    If the conversation is loud enough for you to hear it, in a place where you or other people may hear it, then it’s not a private conversation and use of a Listening Device is not restricted.

                     

                     
                    The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
                    #16870

                    Regarding the 2 comments below:

                     

                    “It’s worth noting, however, that if you have security video surveillance in your building, you must have signs up alerting visitors – not so much for privacy law reasons but for Work Health and Safety issues.”

                     

                     “I read a while back, in the newspaper I think, that people can be filmed, say with CCTV for example, but cannot be recorded unless they knew they were being recorded”

                     

                    Just letting you know, I was allowed by Police & the Court to record & use as evidence in court other residents using common property (ie letterboxes, in front of my front terrace, in the driveway outside my bedroom, etc) WITHOUT any notification to anyone, I was doing this as it was for my own protection (I asked the Police beforehand if I need to put up a sign).

                    #16904

                    Thanks Jimmy and to all for good advice.  My lawyer has written to them and warned them the noise is being recorded. There is no legal problem with that.  My lawyer has told me to keep a “noise log” which is what I have been doing.  I am preparing to lodge an application at the CTTT over the problem. 

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