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05/09/2012 at 9:12 am #8368
Hi FlatChatters,
we are facing a difficult situation with one of our neighbours. She is making “legal noise”.
She loves to invite friends and talk with them on her balcony–for hours. It’s typical girly chatting: Lots of laughter and OMGs of about three people. They usually start around 6 to 7pm and end by 10pm if we’re lucky.
When we return from work we like to relax, but this chatting is disrupting our evening. We can hear it through closed windows and doors.
Last summer hardly a week went by without at least one such session. We talked to her, but she considered it “acceptable” to make this kind of noise until at least midnight.
On one occasion she had a party lasting throughout the night until 6am. We then lodged a complaint, which was signed by two other neighbours, and the agent notified her.
Winter was quiet, however, now chatting has returned and we fear another summer lost to stress.
When I talked to her on the last occasion and asked her to meet for a talk she said we had “talked already” and slammed the door shut in front of me.
What can we do?
She’s got a point when she says that talking on the balcony is not prohibited. But our by-laws have the usual clause that there should be no noise to the detriment of another tenant.
Clearly she is inconsiderate. But what are my options to deal with this noise issue other than what we’ve tried already?
Our other neighbours seem to be complacent and don’t want to get involved. They seem to be less sensitive to her noise than we are.
Thank you!
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05/09/2012 at 12:18 pm #16426
Oh — the joys of Strata Living.
You are to be commended for taking the personal approach and by acting so reasonably.
You shouldn’t assume that a certain type/level of noise is permitted (“legal”) because it occurs within certain timeframes; that’s incorrect!
Any advice that I might provide would depend upon whether you’re a Proprietor or a Tenant, but in general terms I’d strongly suggest that you read the information provided here. Even if you’re not in NSW, other States / Territories have very similar approaches to situations such as yours.
05/09/2012 at 2:14 pm #16427AnonymousOasis69, as you say, clearly she’s inconsiderate and so are her friends most probably.
I agree with Whale on most points but will suggest something extra, whether you are an owner or tenant; and I guess the balcony-chatter is a tenant as you mention the ‘agent’ which I assume is the real estate agent.
Go to office of the real estate agent, find out who the Property Manager is of the balcony-chatter’s property, speak to that person; follow it up in writing. See if you can find out who the owner of the unit is, write or contact them; again put it in writing. Maybe pay them a visit if you get an address.
You could also pay $40 to inspect the ‘strata roll’ at the Strata Manager’s office, which I think you would have a right to do. Or the Strata Manager might simply tell you how to contact the owner, or even speak to the balcony-chatters on your behalf. Tell the strata manager your problem anyway, they may help.
Basically, you need to be AS annoying to the real estate agent and owner of the balcony-chatters property, AS the noise is annoying to you. And you need a multi pronged approach. (Not much point in engaging with the balcony-chatter herself anymore.)
Be prepared for a bit of stick, especially from the real estate agent. Property Managers are ‘bottom dwellers’ and like an easy life. If they won’t help you, you may have to find out who the boss of the office is (licensee) and annoy them, which won’t endear you to the Property Manager but may get you a result.
You sound like a nice level-headed, even-handed person but I encourage you to go the whole hog and don’t hold back.
05/09/2012 at 3:31 pm #16428Thanks for your replies, guys.
To answer your questions: I am in NSW and a tenant. In fact, we have a special situation here: Everyone in our block is a tenant, and the whole house is owned by the same person and managed by the same real estate agent.
If I read you correctly this should be our advantage: I just need to contact that agent and make sure to report early and often.
We are already keeping a noise diary and have started to record five-minute audio files (e.g. the other night when they woke us up at 2am with their chatter).
Yes, we tend to be nice, I don’t believe in the value of getting nasty, although my brain keeps coming up with all sorts of revenge plans…
I’ll have a read of Whale’s link and will report back as things develop.
Thanks again!
08/09/2012 at 4:45 pm #16456Today I’ve been to the real estate agent. Turns out I was wrong: there are 3 owners for the units in our house, and there is a Strata management.
The agent promised to notify both of the most recent incident which I supplied in writing.
I also popped into the local police station and asked about “talking” noise (as opposed to music). I learned that I can call them about that too, and they would come out and remind the tenant about being considerate and fine them if they didn’t get the lesson.
I feel better now. Hopefully Strata and owners react quickly so we get our peace back.
I’ll keep you posted.
09/09/2012 at 4:55 pm #16466Hi oasis69, thanks for posting that bit about calling the police re talking noise.
I’m having a similar problem with my neighbours at present. I live in an old 1960s walk-up (which doesn’t have much noise insulation at the best of times) with a staircase in the middle of the building. There are windows in the common property wall for the purpose of ventilating the staircase, however they are next to the balconies on that side of the building. Which means when people have loud gatherings on their balconies the noise travels and can be heard inside our units. You can practically hear every word they say. And smoke from their cigarettes blows into the hallways and our units as well from under our front doors.
The owner who lives directly next to me has had lots of loud parties with music blaring into the early hours of the morning most weekends. I might mention that he is also a member of the EC. Funny that.
The common wall dividing our units is between my bedroom and what (I assume) is his living room. Again you can hear loud conversations as if it was in my own unit.
It’s driving me nuts. I didn’t know you could call the police to tell selfish neighbours to shut up, actually assumed they wouldn’t waste their time on that. I’ve asked my rude EC neighbour to quiet down but to no avail. So thanks oasis69 I know who to call next time
18/09/2012 at 11:26 pm #16571I had some neighbours who were playing music often. We share a wall and although it wasn’t always late at night, it was during times when I was at home wanting some peace and quiet. However all I could hear was doof doof from the wall!
My personal advice is to start escalating the situation. You’ve tried talking with them and it doesn’t work. Basically follow the advice on this website and the ‘Annoyed by Noise’ booklet:
https://www.epa.vic.gov.au/en/your-environment/noise/how-to-deal-with-residential-noise#neighbours
Ring up the Disputes Settlement Centre and try to get a negotiated resolution. If that doesn’t work, then I would say take them to VCAT.
Of course, while that’s all going on, have a go at seeing if the council, the police or other organisations are able to help. They probably won’t but it’s worth a try.
Please let us know how you go!
20/09/2012 at 10:52 am #16573Here’s what you do Oasis: you have zero tolerance for selfishness in communal living.
The laws and penalties with regard to noise haven’t caught up: they’re utterly weak, and if you go the softly-softly approach the noise will continue because – just look at how many people put their feet on seats on public transport these days – a new generation is completely self-absorbed (and half deaf due to iPods), months of trying to live with it and make suggestions to the perpetrators will pass, and you’ll only be further pushed into greater stress. Believe me, I know. I shared a party wall with a group of backpackers: top-o-the-mornin’ charming when sober during the week, binge-drunk hell on two legs on the weekend. I was pushed to a nervous breakdown by their parties which began at midnight on Fridays. I would ring and ring the police, but being weekend nights, they never turned up for a noise issue. So the system is broken. Emailed the owners of the unit: never received replies – so the selfishness wasn’t just the tenants. I then did the mediation thing through the OC: owner dismissed my complaints as just ‘young people having a reasonable good time’. All this took months to arrange. Finally went to state tribunal which is what I should have done in first place. Owners really REALLY made it clear by body language that they resented having to stump up to the city on a weekday morning, taking valuable time out of their precious day to listen to this, to them, piffling issue. The tribunals are an exercise in disappointment: few walk away happy with their outcomes, but the fact that people have to present themselves and are held to account, amounts to something. Resenting the hassle, the owners finally got new tenants who have been the soul of thoughtfulness and quiet. So, dear Oasis: I wouldn’t waste one moment more trying to be reasonable with those who are unreasonable and selfish: get your form into your state tribunal asap for a hearing.
Oh, and did I suggest the penalties for noise of this sort need to be dramatically increased? They need to be made utterly onerous! Because the hip pocket is the only thing that hits home. People who do such behaviour in the first place have zero empathy and consideration for others. Do you really think you can knock on their door repeatedly and school them? One notification, and that’s it. If the behaviour repeats, you know they need their arm legally twisted. Go to it.
26/03/2013 at 10:34 pm #18134Dear Oasis,
Just wondering whether you’ve managed to resolve the issue for yourself?
I feel for you whole-heartedly as I’ve been through a similar ordeal fairly recently. I don’t think anyone really appreciates the pain and suffering that one goes through until they go through it themselves. For us it was terrible, so much so it started getting into our personal lives, and at work. Sometimes we would have tiffs over it, like whether we were being reasonable or just over-reacting! We approached the neighbours several times through letters over the course of a year, and we did chat initially but that was about the end of it. When the noise occurs you feel terrible because you start having bad thoughts and it’s not something one should be thinking about especially mid morning.
We compiled a list of when these occurred and how it affected us. It got to the point where we had more than enough, and approached Strata Management and they were very helpful. They got in contact with the owner and the owner then got in contact with the tenants. It seemed to have some affect whatever was done. Touch wood as we haven’t had those terrible late nights yet.
It’s terrible that it had to get as far as it did. It’s just plain inconsiderate.
And it sux… because we consider ourselves to be quite neighbourly do enjoy seeing neighbours in the hallway and chatting. Now it’s just awkward.
27/03/2013 at 1:12 am #18135This can indeed be a tricky situation as it’s difficult to know when allowing your neighbours a little leeway becomes counter-productive and extends a problem that should be resolved quickly and as cleanly as possible.
My recommendation would be a five-step process. The first time noise annoys you, you contact the neighbours and say, “Look, you probably don’t realise this but your party noises (or surround sound , whatever) are really disturbing …”
If it happens again, ask your Executive Committee or strata manager to send them a letter explaining that there are two sets of laws they need to be aware of. The by-laws of the building don’t allow anyone to make noise that disturbs another resident’s peaceful enjoyment of their lot at any time. Then there are the State laws that forbid noisy behaviour after 10 pm on weekdays and midnight at weekends. Both of these apply. If the EC or Strata Manager won’t send the letter, send it yourself and let the neighbours know that you don’t want to take further action but you will if the problem continues.
The next time it happens, you are justified in getting serious about this. Send a letter to your executive committee and/or strata manager explaining that these residents are in breach of noise by-laws and asking that a Notice To Comply be served on them. Copy this to the noisy neighbours. If the neighbours are tenants, explain that by being in breach of by-laws they are also in breach of their tenancy agreement and could be evicted. Warn them that if this persists, you will take action, albeit reluctantly, and inform their landlords about the problem.
If they continue with the bad behaviour, pursue the Notice To Comply with the Executive Committee or Strata Manager and contact their landlords or rental agent telling them that there is a problem and remind them that there is a legal precedent whereby landlords are responsible for the behaviour of their tenants and can have a Noise Abatement order served on them, the landlords, if they are aware of a noise problem but do nothing about it.
If the landlords, executive committee or strata manager won’t do anything to help, go to your district court and ask for a Noise Abatement order. If the neighbours ignore that, it is a contempt of court and the police definitely will turn up and shut them down and may even arrest them.
I realise this can cause a few weeks of bad feeling but that’s preferable to months of sleepless weekends. And perhaps if the opportunity arises, at some point you can sit down and talk this through with your neighbours. But when push comes to shove, all strata residents – owners and tenants – have the right to peace and quiet. Nobody has the right to make excessive noise and disturb others, whether they are in strata or free-standing homes.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
27/03/2013 at 4:46 pm #18143All residents are entitled to the reasonable peaceful enjoyment of their own home.
In addition to the great information already posted another point that I make to noisey neighbours is that I can hear what they are talking about. That this is an inadvertent invasion of their privacy and mine, because I really don’t want to know their ‘business’ and that I find this ‘knowledge’ personally embarassing.
You might like to let the noisey neighbour know just how much you know about them – as the only way to avoid hearing what they are talking about is to wear ear plugs. And as I make a point of maintaining my privacy so should they.
They are also in breach of their lease agreement, as a landlord you want decent tenants who are not going to use and abuse their property, regular parties place a great deal of additional wear and tear on the property and could be viewed as problematic in renewing a lease. Do make that point strongly to the property manager.
PS: Playing Chinese Opera or similiar may also very useful. But 2 wrongs don’t make a right either and this could seriously backfire.
27/03/2013 at 10:26 pm #18145All good arguments, tenants flout noise regulations, landlord is informed and terminates the tenancy based on by-law breaches.
But let me play the devils advocate here.
Yes excessive noise by a tenant is a breach of by-law (1) and potentially strata 117 (1)(a) and possibly (c) and potentially environmental and council regulations.
But what if the landlord is a relative or friend of the tenants and really doesn’t give a toss that their best buddies are constantly annoying a small part of the suburb. In fact the landlord tells all and sundry to leave their tenants alone and that they are definitely staying put.
As I understand it neither the OC, EC Strata Manager or CTTT can terminate a lease based on a breach of by laws of a tenant unless the landlord consents.
Can the landlord be fined by the CTTT for the behavour of their tenants?. A breach of a notice to comply often yields a fine of a few hundred dollars at best after months of mayhem to the surrounding neighbours.
Feedback and discussion most welcome
28/03/2013 at 9:45 am #18147
@andyj said:
As I understand it neither the OC, EC Strata Manager or CTTT can terminate a lease based on a breach of by laws of a tenant unless the landlord consents.
Can the landlord be fined by the CTTT for the behavour of their tenants?
You are right about the OC and all the others not being able to terminate a lease and while I’m not sure about the CTTT issuing fines against landlords (technically they probably can but whether they do or on is a bit of a lottery). That said, the strata Act does make owners responsible for the behaviour of the occupants of their property (see section of Act at end).
However the best answer probably lies outside the CTTT/Fair Trading/by-laws nexus.
Apartment owners and dwellers are still subject to the same noise laws as everyone else so by-laws are on top of rather than instead of State or local government regulations.
A couple of years ago a precedent was created when a Sydney man and his mother successfully had a Noise Abatement Order served by a local court on the landlords of a neighbouring apartment. The apartment was let out to a rolling cavalcade of backpacker types who basically slept all day and partied all night. Because the personnel was constantly changing Notices To Comply were worse than useless and CTTT Orders took too long to process.
However, a District Court Magistrate ruled that the landlords had responsibility because they had been told about the problem, they had the opportunity to resolve it (kick the tenants out) and had openly decided to do nothing about it.
Anyone who has a chronic noise problem with neighbours should consider this as an option. Any resident of in NSW can apply for a Noise Abatement Order against noisy tenants and/or the landlords and owner-residents, for that matter.
In your case, sine the tenants are staying, they would be the easiest and therefore the first target. But if things got tricky, there would be a lot of satisfaction gained from hauling the landlord before the beak too.
The cool thing about a Noise Abatement order is that a breach is a criminal offence – the miscreants can actually be arrested. And, at the very least, the cops WILL come if your report a breach of a court order rather than a noisy party (although they often come to that too).
You can find out more about Noise Abatement Orders HERE and download a pamphlet on noise HERE. And you can read more about the story quoted HERE and HERE.
And this is the relevant section of the Act if you go down the CTTT route:
117 Owners, occupiers and other persons not to create nuisance
(1) An owner, mortgagee or covenant chargee in possession (whether in person or not), lessee or occupier of a lot must not:
(a) use or enjoy the lot, or permit the lot to be used or enjoyed, in such a manner or for such a purpose as to cause a nuisance or hazard to the occupier of any other lot (whether that person is an owner or not), or
(b) use or enjoy the common property in such a manner or for such a purpose as to interfere unreasonably with the use or enjoyment of the common property by the occupier of any other lot (whether that person is an owner or not) or by any other person entitled to the use and enjoyment of the common property, or
(c) use or enjoy the common property in such a manner or for such a purpose as to interfere unreasonably with the use or enjoyment of any other lot by the occupier of the lot (whether that person is an owner or not) or by any other person entitled to the use and enjoyment of the lot.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
11/06/2013 at 9:39 pm #18647Just wanted to quickly update on this issue.
It went all the way to mediation where we were basically told that this was her “lifestyle” and if we wanted quietness then “renting probably wasn’t for us”.
I felt pretty deflated after that, and the lack of support for this case.
We have moved on (literally). Burned her notices ritually and moved out, from a bright, spacious, centrally-located unit to a darker, smaller one where I have to take the train to work.
Ah, the power of the inconsiderate noisy ones…
12/06/2013 at 8:56 am #18651oasis69 – that’s a crying shame and possibly yet another example of how poorly strata disputes are managed through the OFT / CTTT’s processes.
It’s a pity that you didn’t have the energy to take the matter to adjudication, or moreso that you didn’t take earlier advice to go down the Noise Abatement Order / Local Court path as “the best answer probably lies outside the CTTT/Fair Trading/by-laws nexus” (Jimmy T).
Take strength from that biblical reference about meek (and considerate) people one day benefiting from their approach to matters such as those that you’ve just experienced. You may not inherit the earth, but as least you can now reside in peace (and quiet).
12/06/2013 at 11:22 am #18657I really feel for you Oasis69 and thanks for sharing.
Here, for interests sake, is how my partner and I solved a particular noise problem in our strata, one of three in close proximity to each other. The following was sent as a leaflet but in stamped, mailed envelopes, addressed to Residents and Occupants. It has worked, at least for now. This was after getting NO help from the Strata Management Company who manage all three stratas.
Heading: Down With Doof-Doof! You don’t have to put up with it!
Hello Apartment Dwelling Neighbours in 23, 25 and 27.
Under the NSW Strata Titles Act someone else’s heavy bass you can hear in your apartment is ‘Offensive Noise’, a legal term, because it ‘interferes unreasonably with (or is likely to interfere unreasonably with) the comfort or repose of a person who is outside the premises from which it is emitted’. That’s a legal definition.
If the noise can also be heard in other apartments in separate blocks, as happens round here, there can obviously be no argument. It is Offensive Noise.
Check and you’ll find Strata Laws clearly state you shouldn’t make so much noise that it annoys your neighbours at any time. Even at 6pm the doof-doof you hear somebody else playing is almost certainly in breach of NSW Strata By-Laws because they operate 24/7 – there are no ‘curfew’ times.
Anyone who lives in an apartment in a strata building (especially in close proximity to other apartment buildings) and makes Offensive Noise such as this is inconsiderate and selfish.
State Laws add a further layer of controls, in addition to the Strata Laws mentioned above. State Laws set times when you have to turn it down, whether you live in an apartment or a house. Again, in an apartment, you are subject to Strata Laws over-and-above State Laws.
If you know who the inconsiderate apartment dweller is and can provide an identity and address, or just an apartment number, or if you want to share an opinion, send an email to xxxxxx.xxxxx@gmail.com. Use an anonymous email address if you have one but if you use your own email you will not be contacted and your privacy is guaranteed.
Also, don’t be afraid to let the miscreant know next time their noise is upsetting you if you know who they are, now that you’re aware you are ‘in the right’ and they’re breaking NSW Strata Laws.
If you’re the self-obsessed doof-doof person yourself, you need to stop.
And then there was the party which took place last Saturday night. Same apartment? We’d guess ‘Yes’. Too big a party! Too late! Too noisy! Why not just go to a pub or a club? When you live in an apartment with families, babies, kids and old people all living nearby in an otherwise quiet community, you just shouldn’t subject your neighbours to that sort of thing. It is very, very unfair.
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