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Topic
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Hard flooring on (essentially) a ground floor apartment?
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We have owned a studio apartment since the block was built back in the late 70s. No one has ever lived there, and we’ve never rented it. But now, my daughter will be moving in, and it’s in desperate need of an update from all of its 1970s glory.
Our Strata seems to take pride in being particularly difficult, and have been extraordinarily frustrating to deal with.
There was a standard by-law that said that renovations need EC approval, and some guy a few years back put down a tiled floor (ripping up the carpet) without underlay or sound proofing or whatever and without permission. I don’t know the whole details of the case, but apparently they took him to mediation and then to court and it was declared he could keep his floors. Whatever. But now the strata have a new by-law which states:
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ii) An owner or occupier of a lot must not install or allow the installation of:
a) a floating floor,
b) a vinyl floor or floor covering or similar;
c) tiles, paving, parquetry, timber, marble, limestone or other hard flooring or floor covering
in any room of the lot
iii) Without limiting paragraph 2, the owner of the lot must ensure that the floor to the lot is covered or otherwise treated to an extent sufficient to prevent the transmission from the floor of noise likely to disturb the peaceful enjoyment of the owner or occupier of another lot
iv) This By-Law does not apply to the kitchen, bathroom, lavatory, laundry or balcony of the lot, provided that such room is in its original location in the lot
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This is all fine, except our apartment is on the 6th floor, and below us is 5 floors of CARPARK. So, thinking that the by-law was a bit unreasonable to be applied to our apartment, we took it to an AGM. The EC told us we couldn’t even present the argument unless we spoke with a acoustic engineer and a lawyer, which at great expense, we did. There is also a by-law which says that all renovations have to go through the AGM but we couldn’t present our renovation until we had the floor approval and weren’t allowed to present the two options (if we’re allowed the floor, or one if we’re not) so we left that out.
Anyway, the AGM was a disaster. (Not only because of the floor – before we even got to that, the secretary was being accused of fraud, everyone on the EC resigned, no one wanted to run etc etc – there are nasty personal politics at play here) We failed, and failed largely because lots of people spoke about the pain of having someone with wooden floors above you. Our amendment to the by-law was completely restricted to the 6th floor and only with EC approval and a 5 star underlay rating. But everyone kept saying it would be loud to be below someone with a wooden floor. I tried to tell everyone that unless they moved into the CARPARK, this could not possibly be them.
Anyway, so the by-law stands. My question is essentially, what grounds to do we have to appeal, and what would the chances be of success? It’s perhaps worth noting that the majority of the building is leased to a serviced apartments provider, and the entire 6th floor is used as serviced short stay apartments, except for us. Also, the current floor plan means that the bathroom and kitchen (tiles and rubber {UGH}, respectively) are actually larger than the rest of the studio, so we’re not even changing that much of the floor to being hard – it’s already majority hard flooring!
What would happen if we decide to put down a floor without permission? What action could they take?
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Replies
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Sounds like they are not organised enough to take any action!
Alternatively, you could seek orders from the Tribunal to give effect to your sensible proposal on the grounds that the general meeting failed to consider it reasonably.
It sounds like the building you’re in is quite dysfunctional! My commiserations…
One thing the EC may be wary of, is creating a perception of double standards. They might worry that once one owner has a hard floor, other owners will be able to say “THAT owner put in a hard floor, so why can’t I put one in.” Even though the answer may be obvious (one lot has a carpark under it, the other doesn’t) there can still be a perception that it is unfair. The EC I am on is struggling with this exact issue in my building.
A family I know has two pre-teen kids, one with lactose intolerance and one without. The lactose intolerant one can’t have ice cream. So NOBODY gets ice cream, including the parents. Not logical, but saves massive temper tantrums.
Some people maintain their 5-year-old sense of injustice right through to adulthood….
RL
AJC – on the assumption that your Plan’s in NSW, I’m afraid that if the Special By-Law that’s quoted in your post was properly considered by way of a Special Resolution at a General Meeting, that it’s Registered, and that the Owners Corporation’s (O/C) decision to deny consent to your proposed works (i.e. the floating floor) was also correctly taken and accurately minuted, then in my opinion you have no grounds to seek Orders or in fact any other redress in the NSW Civil and Administrative Tribunal (NCAT).
That’s not to suggest that the arguments and supporting information that you put to the General Meeting weren’t valid, it’s just that there are few limitations on the ability of O/Cs to make and to enforce Special / By-Laws, and none of those limitations applies to the one that’s affecting you.
As you’ve noted, some Proprietors in your Plan have in the past suffered noise-related inconvenience as a consequence of some activities involving changes to floor coverings in Lots, and the O/C’s Special By-Law didn’t discriminate between Lots; that is those on the bottom residential floor and those located elsewhere.
Noise transmission from hard flooring, and particularly from wooden / floating floors that it appears you’re proposing, is a REAL issue for O/C’s, and previous posts to this forum have revealed many so-called experts that will guarantee anything in terms of their product’s sound insulation capabilities in order to secure a job, and then leave the consequences of non-compliance and neighbours’ complaints to their former client.
Everything considered and given the positioning of your Unit, and taking into account that proper sound insulation doesn’t just apply to the floor, but also to the margins where a hard floor abuts common walls with adjoining units, IF you can obtain the services of a properly qualified and insured Acoustic Engineer who’s prepared to not only specify suitable sound insulating materials for your Unit in terms of a product’s ability to meet a suitable “weighted normalised impact sound pressure level” (Ln,w) [typically <60], and additionally to indemnify you should noise-related problems later arise, then I, for the first time with regard to such matters on this forum, would suggest that you proceed; cautiously.
AJG – congratulations on your earnest efforts to do things properly, even though that’s being frustrated by what on the face of it appears to be a less than cooperative Executive Committee and O/C.
So far as the acoustics is concerned, have a talk with Regupol Aust P/L., who even though they sell what that make, has a specialist Strata Noise Team who you’ll find helpful. Just make sure that fully apprise them of the situation and what it is that you want to achieve, because in my experience they sometimes talk-down things such as the need (for you) to also soundproof those margins where the hard flooring abuts common walls.
With regard to the structural engineering issues, if you want a second opinion then contact Integrated Building Consultancy, they’re Sponsors of FlatChat and also have a specialist Team dealing with Strata issues, and may have some contacts in the acoustics specialty.
Now…. with regard to the O/C’s consent to your proposed alterations to the common property, again I’m afraid to say that what your Executive Committee has said is true, in that those can only be considered by way of a Special Resolution at a General Meeting, but you don’t have to wait until the next one of the “Annual” variety next April.
You could make a formal request to the E/C Secretary for them to convene an Extra Ordinary General Meeting (EGM) to consider your proposed changes and renovations, and offer to pay for any O/C’s costs to do such as for the venue or for your Strata Manager’s time, OR, should that be denied try to gain the support of 25% of your fellow Owners as determined by their Lots’ units of entitlement to sign a “requisition” (a petition) requiring the E/C to convene such an EGM, where the E/C Secretary must then do so under the provisions of Sch 2, Cl 31(3) of the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act (SCMA).
It’s worth noting that if it eventuates that your E/C or O/C cannot make up its mind one way or another on any submission that you’ve made after 2 months, then you can seek Orders from the NCAT to have an Adjudicator make a decision for them under Sect 138 2(b) of the SCMA.
Finally, as you’re new to Strata have a read through THIS excellent publication of the NSW Office of Fair Trading.
This is all fine, except our apartment is on the 6th floor, and below us is 5 floors of CARPARK. So, thinking that the by-law was a bit unreasonable to be applied to our apartment, we took it to an AGM.
You’re assuming that noise created at the floor can only travel downwards.
My recent experience is that concrete slabs are very, very good at transmitting noise sideways.
There’s a couple of units in our 8-pack being renovated at the moment. A few weekends ago there was lots of banging and hammering and it sounded like it was coming from the unit directly above me. Given that unit is tenanted whatever they were doing was inappropriate so after nearly an hour I charged out ready to give them a “serve”. Fortunately on my way I discovered the noise was in fact coming from a unit two positions along the building.
So noise transferred to the building structure can quite easily travel via structural elements of the building.
……which is precisely why I suggested in post #6 that AJC should be seeking advice about how to also “soundpfoof the margins where the hard floor abuts common walls”.
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