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15/02/2012 at 2:28 pm #7918
Hi Guys
I recently purchased a duplex or at least half of a duplex (my kids tease me about paying 900k for half a house in the desert.. ha ha) and the strata title was not finalised when i purchased it as the previous owners were the original builders and both sides were family so they decided not to worry about it.
Now they have sold off both sides and we need to sort it out, was i silly to buy a duplex like this?
I was told it is easy to organise with my neighbour and all i need to do is hold monthly coffee catch ups and have a chat..
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16/02/2012 at 8:09 am #14776
On the face of it you seem to have paid a lot of money and you don't have title documents to prove it and now the holder of the title has sold to someone else. I would be talking to a lawyer immediately. Did anyone do conveyancing for you? If so, they might have been negligent. I would be talking to a different lawyer from the first one if you used a lawyer then.
21/08/2012 at 3:00 pm #16312Hello PeterC
In fact it was myself and not pauline that purchased the Duplex.
Of course we have title documents.
I did so about 2-3 years ago in fact and I am still living in that said duplex now and let it be known that in fact there are ZERO issues or problems between the other duplex owner and myself, rather we have become good neighbours and friends.
We have started and maintained good healthy relations and we even help each other when we need help. There is good communication between both families and there is ZERO conflict.
I knew this would be important when I decided to buy into such an arrangement.
We live in sydney, which, as you should know is an expensive housing market. Our price is in fact what I believe is the right “market price” because yes we did our homework and similar priced properties were going for if not substantially more, then simiilar prices.
It is a double storey, double brick construction and rather new with all the fancy luxury inclusions imagineable that no one notices unless they spend the time to look closely at (which thankfully very few people do).
During purchase of course we consulted solicitors, who reviewed the contracts with us closely and closely advised of all our options to a 2 duplex strata property purchase.
Although I myself haven’t heard very much about such setups, I had encountered a few during our initial search for a new home, so I wasn’t put off, although I think that is the only thing that kept most buyers away (a good thing for me).
This purchase in fact was for a property that the original owner occupied and owned both residences and was now selling both, but he himself had not created a strata scheme yet because he was occupying both.
By the time of settlement it was left to us, the first buyer and the original owner.
The owner eventually sold the other property and then it was left to the other “new” owner and myself to set up and maintain the scheme or have it managed by a professional strata manager at a price.
Instead I consulted the NSW Fair trading office, downloaded a copy of the strata laws, researched the topic myself and asked around.
Both owners agreed we would self manage the strata.
At the first AGM that we held between both owners we had lengthy discussions about all sorts of topics.
I printed out the strata laws and by laws and we used that as a basis to start and open discussions.
I minuted the lot.
Since then we have had yearly AGM’s with little to NO issues raised.
We have agreed to pay our own expenses and share the property insurance.
Other than that, we… in the famous words of my know-it-all, nosy, but good natured friend Pauline would say… “…all i need to do is hold monthly (No make that Yearly) coffee catch ups and have a chat…..”
During the course of our stay both owners have experienced leaking roofs, minor exterior capital improvements all paid for by the respective homeowner’s themselves.
We have interests in other strata properties and my partner is on the executive committee of a unit block so strata laws & bylaws are not foreign to us.
No lawyers were harmed during and after our property purchase and no lawyers were negligent.
PeterC you are wrong by a large margin. No one would knowingly hand over $900k+ in cash for nothing to a stranger.
However, I do thank you for your warnings as I am sure you are at least only considering our vested interest in our property as no one would want to be out of pocket by 900k+ and be left homeless.
21/08/2012 at 4:47 pm #16313Sounds like you have an excellent arrangement and each of you looks after their own property and takes care of all your related problems. This to me would be an ideal strata situation. Self management is the way to go if each owner maintains their own property themselves.
BUT
Have you formalized this arrangement by creating a Strata document and registering the bylaws you both agree to. The byelaws should state that each owner is responsible for their own property in it’s entirety. Doing this now whilst you are on good terms with your neighbor removes the risk that at a future date they sell and your new neighbors are not so accommodating.
22/08/2012 at 2:03 pm #16315Hello kiwipaul
Oops !
Thankyou for that informative reply. Looks like we had done everything right up until where you stated:
1) by creating a Strata document
2) and registering the bylaws
When I read the strata living document from the NSW Fair trading office I couldn’t find anything that stated WHERE I am supposed to lodge our bylaws and what is a Strata document ?
I have maintained meeting invites, agendas, minutes but nothing else.
22/08/2012 at 2:53 pm #16316My personnel opinion is that if you don’t already have a strata go for a Torrens Title instead.
Torrens Title
Torrens title land division is the division of land into at least two allotments, which are held independently of one another. There are generally no shared facilities or infrastructure.
As far as I can tell this gives you 2 totally separate titles and no common property, so no need for sinking funds, admin funds, AGM, voting etc. Seems to me a much simpler system.
You really need to speak to a specialist regarding the best way forward and their are some on here. Just read their entries and see which one knows their stuff best.
22/08/2012 at 4:48 pm #16318Hello kiwipaul
Your reply caused a little concern to myself, so I called up the NSW Office of Fair trading to make an enquiry regarding what official documents I needed to lodge/ register after holding our first AGM.
The Representative on the phone has confirmed that I have done nothing wrong and nothing needs to be registered.
The only time I need to register anything with the Land office, I think she said was if we decide to change the bylaws, but by adopting the model default bylaws, then we need not lodge/ register anything.
Thanks again for your reply kiwipaul as this has prompted me to check and given me enough assurances that we have done the correct thing.
Regarding each owner is responsible for their own property in it’s entirety, I had stipulated in the AGM agenda and confirmed the decision in the minutes captured and issued back to the owners via email, then confirmed acceptance of the minutes in the next AGM
22/08/2012 at 5:47 pm #16319@Danielle said:
Hello kiwipaulRegarding each owner is responsible for their own property in it’s entirety, I had stipulated in the AGM agenda and confirmed the decision in the minutes captured and issued back to the owners via email, then confirmed acceptance of the minutes in the next AGM
Doing this achieves nothing, it needs to be in the bylaws to be effective and the new bylaws need to be registered. Otherwise the rules of who is responsible for what is just the default for a Strata complex generally. An AGM can authorize changes but until they are registered they do not apply. Strongly recommend you speak to a Strata specialist.
22/08/2012 at 7:03 pm #16321KP is right, as it stands you are operating under the standard by-laws which means that the two of you are responsible for the common property collectively. Having something in minutes doesn’t achieve anything, you need to resolve to pass by-laws and register those by-laws with the Department of Lands.
Also agree with KP’s advice that you should consult a lawyer. If you want to make each owner responsible for specific parts of the property, then you need to determine what they are, and that needs to be spelt out in the by-laws, because what you are doing or would like to do is giving each other exclusive use. That is not as easy as it sounds.
23/08/2012 at 1:00 pm #16322AnonymousHi Pauline and other forum members,
We need to be careful in our exchanges in regards to what weight anyone gives to advice (including mine) from the forum. I am concerned with some of the exchanges on this issue. I think an important point has been missed by all.
Am I right in suggesting that the Duplex development is not a registered Strata Plan, its seems to be some other form of Land Title registration. If this is correct then holding AGM, EGM having bylaws etc would have no inforceability at all, all of these issues are given inforcement powers under the Strata Scheme Management Act, but only if the Title registration is as a Strata Plan (Scheme) so if I am right, at best what you have done is simply applied a system that both Owners are happy with to help deal with the issues, however in my knowleage and experience I don’t think either owner would be able to enforce them (this point may need to be reviewed by a Solicitor). It may be worth while for the Owners to seek legal advice to how they can set what they have agreed to into a legal document so if they sell on to future owners the new owners will need to continue to apply the agreed joint policies etc.
However what concerns me most is what is the Land Registration details on the property, the issue for me is simple and that is, so long as both owners have sought advice that they have the freedum to sell etc, then its all good. It would seem to me that both Owners have done there due diligence in regards to this and if so, the rest of us should respect that.
I hope this adds a little clarity, and congragulations on having the good sense to form a friendly and co-operative relationship in managing your Duplex homes..
24/08/2012 at 5:38 pm #16335OK ! Firstly thankyou one and all for all the very informative replies.
I am pleased to recieve so many replies to this question because firstly, as a typical homeowner I am certainly no expert in this field and trying to find out exactly what each homeowner should and must do wasn’t very easy either.
Thank you scotlandx because there were several replies with I need to register something with someone but you have stated: “…you need to resolve to pass by-laws and register those by-laws with the Department of Lands….”
Thank you for making that clear and that is what I had been hoping for. A source for where I can ask the right questions and get the right answers.
You also state: “…If you want to make each owner responsible for specific parts of the property, then you need to determine what they are, and that needs to be spelt out in the by-laws, because what you are doing or would like to do is giving each other exclusive use…”
Thank you again for your clarity.
kiwipaul, thankyou for your continued persistence to make me see the reality of things legally rather than a forelorn hope until something sours.
IBC, our duplex is a registered strata with a strata plan number and I do thank you for your diplomatic reply and strong suggestion of further legal advice.
So I have searched the internet and found this site: https://www.lands.nsw.gov.au/
The Land and Property Management Authority (LPMA) was abolished under the NSW Government restructure announced in April 2011 and its former business divisions transferred to new departments. All divisions are continuing business as usual and the previous customer contact points are available.
I have made a call to the office Land and Property information:
They have confirmed that the strata plan for this property as registered with them have adopted the model strata by laws
I have made a call and being friday afternoon, they have advised a senior person will call me back Monday in regards to:
1) a duplex situation under a strata plan and what needs to be registered
2) what needs to be done to make both owners responsible for their own homes in terms of any repairs or capital improvements.
I do appreciate all the advice provided as it has proved to be invaluable and has highlighted my own shortfalls and lack of knowledge and expertise and the pitfalls in buying into a duplex strata, however, we were just lucky that so far there has been zero issues and no fallout between the 2 parties.
Of course this could change and everything could go sour and that is what we both want to protect against.
We didn’t really want to explore the Torrens title option as that will involve additional expense, but in the end if we need to consult our solicitors/ lawyers then it will be at a cost anyway to both parties, then perhaps a Torrens application might be a better outcome.
I will post a reply when I have spoken to a representative from the Land and Property information office.
I had sent an email to NSW fair Trading but they failed to reply within their 24 hr timeframe, so maybe Monday.
This certainly isn’t as easy as I first thought and I do appreciate this forum for providing an avenue and link to yourselves and your invaluable insight and advice
Thank you one and all so far and keep the advice coming with whatever you have to share that can shed more light on what is a complex but interesting exercise for me.
I now wonder…When I can feel secure and I can just hold yearly coffee catch ups and have a chat..
27/08/2012 at 1:48 pm #16353So I have been in contact with both:
1) NSW fair trading and
2) properties and land information
and I get conflicting information
Fair trading have confirmed that I don’t need to register anything with anyone.
The properrty already has a registered strata scheme. Thge model by-laws are in place. Any changes can be managed between the 2 owners as long as it is documented in meetings
Properties and land information advise that we, the owners should have a title certificate and common property title certificate.
To change the by-laws i need to write up the change then submit on the correct form and submit along with the original common property title certificate.
I was directed to their web page and to read the information to find the information I require.
Theirs does sound the more logical of the 2 options because having confirmed safeguards does sound like a better and more secure option, especially since it can be proven that the changes to bylaws were mutually agreed upon and lodged as proof.
Oh well, looks like the coffee and a chat will have to wait a little longer.
Thanks once again for all the assistance and advice from everyone as I very much do appreciate all the help.
I think I will investigate the option of any legal assistance as well since it is growing in complexity.
All both home owners wanted was:
1) shared building insurance
2) no levies
3) no sinking fund
4) no auditor
5) self management and responsibility of our own properties
6) the only common property being the shared driveway, fence running along the side of both properties and that is it
I was hoping that the rules were clear cut and easy to follow
28/08/2012 at 5:52 am #16356Danielle, unfortunately, when you phone a large organisation, the person who answers the telephone, or even the first person you are referred to, is usually not an expert in the area.
You said previously you have Strata Title and you should be able to check if that is so by getting back to your conveyancer or solicitor and asking.
Someone has your Title Deed. It could be a bank, or your solicitor, or you may have it in your house. Ask for a copy so when asking questions you get the correct answers for your situation.
I think you are getting conflicting information because you do not seem to be sure of Title.
I am pretty sure you can not just decide to go with whatever is easiest for you.
If you have separate Titles then you do things separately.
If you do not have any insurance it is really important to get cover quickly.
28/08/2012 at 4:21 pm #16360I’m no expert but to do this yourself is asking for trouble down the line (unless you are familiar with the terminology). You need a belt an braces agreement that cannot be challenged by a subsequent owner when their roof collapses and asks you to pay half.
You need to give a strata expert your ideas and he then turns it into a bylaw that is enforceable subsequently. I’m all in favor of DIY generally but this is not just an a/c fitted to a wall, it’s the future maintenance of 2 million $ properties and a little spending now could save a fortune later IMHO.
Here is the NSW web site
https://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Tenants_and_home_owners/Strata_schemes.html
29/08/2012 at 1:07 pm #16365AnonymousHi Danielle,
Well you have had a great response from the forum to your issues. The bottom line is that you have a duplex under a registered Strata Plan Title.
It seems to me you have a good working relationship with your co Owner, thats a great start. I think what is best for you both is to sit with a good Strata Lawyer and talk about the outcomes that both Owners want to set in concrete so when one sells the other is protected. That is a great Idea!!!
If you want a couple of Strata Lawyers firms names send me an email and I can give you a couple that know what they are doing and wont skin you and your co owner alive.
Best for the future and thanks to the forum members for their contributions as always.
29/08/2012 at 4:13 pm #16369Hello All
Thank you one and all for your most helpful responses to a perplexing issue that for now may be dormant but you are all correct in that it could all very well go sour and blow up in our own faces and prevention is most certainly better than a cure to put at risk a possible $2 mil asset.
You have all convinced me that the best way to achieve our goals would be to seek a professional opinion from experts in the field to make our mutually agreed wishes rock solid and bullet proof, not so much for the immediate future, since both owners are happy and enjoy a coffee and a chat but more for the longer term future ahead, especially if ever one party were to sell their property to a new party and the existing owners just wanted the status quo to proceed rather than go through the whole process again from the start and possibly introduce sweeping changes that they didn’t agree with.
I will initiate contact with the other home owners and let them know that in this case it would be most certainly better to be safe than sorry and that we both should consider what it is we both really want and to draft out our mutually agreed ideas and then consult a professional to set about documenting our wishes and then to register such wishes into a bylaw… or 2.
Maybe after all this is set in stone i will be able to enjoy those yearly coffee chats again, however, I am very grateful for all the advice provided past and present in this forum.
I will be taking the said advice and seeking medical, oops sorry, I mean professional help..
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