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You are entitled to view all records of the owners Corp and there should be a note of who held what proxies from whom. Many strata managers will include this in the minutes of the AGM but even if they don’t you are entitled to see them Treat any claims of “privacy” with contempt and disdain – we don’t have secret ballots … yet.
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@KayJ said:
… why do you keep referring to it as a ‘party flat’ – There has never been a party in my rental. I will not allow it to be trashed, what don’t you understand about that fact.
The decision you are celebrating in your original posting was about party flats. You opened that discussion and associated yourself with those people.
As a property owner I can now use my apartment as a short term rental and keep control of the property.
… and to Hell with the majority of people in your building if they don’t want that.
If someone breaks my House Rules, they are out.
But if a landlord breaks the rules of their building or the council’s zoning laws that’s OK because they have the ‘right’ to make money?
By them having a licence to occupy and not a lease they can be evicted immediately.
By whom? Forget your idyllic situation for a moment; when has this happened? Why didn’t it happen at the Watergate building in Melbourne (which this case is all about)?
You can’t use your specific experience to generalise about all short-term rentals. Are you saying there is no problem? Or is it just that other strata residents all over Australia have to potentially suffer just so you can have your investment?
Public opinion is increasing in their desire for fully self contained residences.
Are you saying more people want to stay in serviced apartments than hotels? Fine, build some serviced apartments and stop invading our homes. Public demand for designer drugs is also increasing but I don’t see that being used as an argument for undermining the law.
Our Code of Conduct will get rid of the small minority that you refer to.
And Santa Claus will be coming down the chimney any minute … If it was as easy as that, Melbourne City Council would not have needed to run this case in the first place and the Victorian government would not be planning to change the law.
Self-regulation of the industry is working very well according to the Australian Building Codes Board and a number of Government bodies who understand the demand by families for a self contained residences.
Where does it say that?
The Australian Governments Productivity Commission Research Report 2010, states the following on page 190 … the growth in serviced apartments as a major form of tourist accommodation, ‘representing at least 30 per cent of all short stay accommodation rooms in Australia’
All this means is that your short-term renting friends may be an even bigger problem than we thought. Build holiday flats and stop leeching off people who are trying to create communities.
… please tell us what mechanism you use to remove party animals who are destroying the legal right to peace and quiet that your neighbours are supposed to enjoy.
– Jimmy – exactly the same way you do for long term tenants who make a noise as you have explained elsewhere on this site.
What rubbish! Long-term residents don’t disappear after a weekend before the building manager, strata manager and EC have even been told there’s a problem. And if there is no problem with short-term rentals, why would this even be an issue?
… how do we get in touch with YOU (or your mealymouthed agents) at 2 am on a Sunday morning when your tenants are singing Cold Chisel’s greatest hits on your balcony or in our swimming pool, …
– In my case text my mobile – all my neighbours have it …
Well done! But that’s you and I’m sure if the same system had operated in The Watergate in Melbourne then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But you are not the problem KayJ … just all the cowboys in your industry whom you seem to support despite the fact that they don’t give a damn about their neighbours.
So what are your sanctions against your party animal tenants … it’s too late for the people who’ve suffered yet another weekend of disruption in their homes.
I have already covered that!
No you haven’t. What about all the absentee owners who hand over their properties to agents and don’t even know if their property has been occupied or not until they get their monthly statement?
Any one who runs a good business will meet and greet, with the power of the internet, you will not survive if you cannot deliver what you promote.
Maybe you do … many, many others don’t. And we are not talking about “good business” are we?
In our building it is the bikies upstairs that are the problem and we cannot do anything – we have tried.
So now you’re saying unruly tenants CAN’T be evicted?
Part of the problem those who defend the short-term letting industry chose to think there isn’t a problem, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
What evidence – have you read what Justice Beach, Nettle and Osborn actually said in their judgements.
Yes I have and it’s pages and pages of definitions of what is a dwelling and what is a hotel room and some stuff about whther anyone was actually in danger because of a lack of hotel-style fire exit signs. That’s it.
There is nothing about giving uncontrolled groups of people access to residents’ homes with no thought for the impact that has on their peace and quiet. Nothing.
This was a technical building law issue which had been raised as a last desperate attempt to deal with an intractable social issue. The ruling was about building law – not the behaviour of short-term tenants.
The “since when is it a crime to make money?’ line you use elsewhere cuts to the heart of this problem. A small number of greedy people are making a lot of people’s lives Hell in pursuit of a fast buck.
You support their “right” to do so by saying you don’t do all the bad things. Hey, I don’t drink and drive but I do drink and I do drive. Should I be supporting drunk drivers?
Yes the party is over and we can get back to business and continue to provide a regular flow of patrons to the local restaurants, and dollars to the local shops, tickets to the football games and shows around town.
Which wouldn’t happen if they stayed in hotels, motels or in properly designated holiday flats? What about the hotel workers who lose their jobs because of people illegally letting their flats as holiday homes? What does that do for the local economy?
And what about the long-term tenants who are squeezed out of the rental market because of inflated prices (viz Byron Bay’s experience). Or the inflationary effect this has on unit and house prices.
But no, short-term letting landlords are people who really CARE about their communities … apart from their neighbours in the buildings that they have turned into hotels.
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@KayJ said:
Jimmy T it is a bit rude to change the heading half way through the discussion.Isn’t it a bit rude to ignore the conventions of this website to write a headline that is three or four lines lines long just so you can crow about your success?
I have previously changed other headlines that were too long (but shorter than yours). Have some respect for the Forum, please.
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I’m going to jump in here because there is a sense of crowing smugness about some of these posts celebrating the failure of Melbourne City Council’s Supreme Court appeal against the victory by party flat short-term letters. Enjoy it while it lasts.
It’s an interpretation of the law, not a definition of right and wrong and eventually, as it always is, the law will be brought into line with public opinion and society’s values. It’s just a matter of time.
By the way, I apologise to all the genuinely responsible, considerate and caring landlords of holiday lets, who take the time and trouble to ensure their tenants have no negative impact on your neighbours.
But the party-flat scumbags are using you as a human shield to protect their own selfish interests. You should be on our side, not theirs, or you could find you go down the same gurgler as they inevitably will.
Meanwhile please don’t give us your BS about voluntary codes of conduct and how licences to occupy are more effective control on bad tenants than leases. They nothing more or less than a sop to politicians and legal loopholes to avoid having to abide by the same laws as other landlords.
If that’s the best you can come up with, it shows the profound dishonesty that is the bedrock of this grubby little business.
If you don’t actually live in the building, please tell us what mechanism you use to remove party animals who are destroying the legal right to peace and quiet that your neighbours are supposed to enjoy. And I mean when it’s happening – not two weeks later when they are long gone!
Long-term residents have to stick around and face the consequences of their actions. Meanwhile, how do we get in touch with YOU (or your mealymouthed agents) at 2 am on a Sunday morning when your tenants are singing Cold Chisel’s greatest hits on your balcony or in our swimming pool, and threatening anyone who dares to utter a reasonable request to keep the noise down.
Call the police? Maybe they’ll come if they aren’t too busy scraping drunk drivers off the road or pursuing real criminals. But if that’s your answer, you are just as much parasites on the law enforcement services as you are on your strata neigbours.
So what are your sanctions against your party animal tenants? Oh, you won’t let your flat to Bozo ever again? But Numpty, Johnno and Tubby can each have a go at putting their name on the lease – sorry, licence to occupy – so that’s going to be really effective, isn’t it.
And it’s too late for the people who’ve suffered yet another weekend of disruption in their homes.
It may be different if you actually live in the property where you are letting out homes like hotel rooms. But if you don’t, and if you or your agents don’t even meet the people who are renting your property, in my humble opinion you are an irresponsible, selfish, greedy grub.
All over Australia right now, strata residents – tenants and owners – who are afflicted by the scourge of short-term lets are wondering what Christmas will bring. It might be a nice family looking for a quiet time by the beach – or it could be a bunch of yahoos who don’t give a damn about whose peace and quiet they disrupt because by the time any complaints filter back to the landlords, they’ll be long gone.
You can’t control that and neither can your neighbours and that’s why sooner or later the law will be changed and you will be out of your tawdry little business.
Part of the problem those who defend the short-term letting industry chose to think there isn’t a problem, despite all the evidence to the contrary.
And when they start crowing about a legal decision In Victoria, it’s not they they have been proved morally right – because we all know that’s never going to happen – but because they have been allowed to get away with it for a bit longer.
If there is such a “need” for short-term lets, let developers build serviced apartment blocks where they are allowed by council regulations and you can invest in them.
Oh, but wait, that would mean you would have to pay commercial council rates for things like garbage collection and insurance. It’s so much better to leech off apartment residents (even if it does mean making their lives a misery).
Regardless of the Victorian Supreme Court ruling (on a point of law) this opportunistic and parasitic invasion of people’s homes has to stop.
So enjoy your little victory while you can. But it won’t be long until the party’s over.
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Fair Trading are right up to a point … but it doesn’t apply here. Perhaps you should park your car in that spot and see what happens. If they say you aren’t allowed to park there, then they are claiming exclusive use of the common property which, you are right, does require a 75 percent vote.
At the very least they are obstructing common property which no amount of cosy votes at the EC will allow them to do.
So here is my suggestion:
In the interest of future good relations with your neighbours, ask for a meeting to resolve this amicably. Let them be the first to talk about their “rights”.
If they are unreceptive, you can argue that they are claiming exclusive use (which they are not entitled to do) and that they are obstructing common property (ditto).
If the problem continues, talk to an experienced strata lawyer (like our sponsors Makinson d’Apice – or others) about sending them a letter explaining that you would prefer to settle this amicably but setting out what your options are should they fail to agree (everything from a CTTT order to the appointment of a strata manager).
After that, your lawyers will advise you on the next step. You can pursue this yourself through Fair Trading but in the interest of good relations in what is a small community, I would escalate this slowly rather than going for ‘shock and awe’ in the first instance.
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@Tony said:I am considering commencing a community campaign across our Estate with leaflets – billboards etc informing them of the situation so as to apply some pressure to the CA in the unreasonableness of their position given the circumstances any thoughts ?
To be honest, I think that may be counterproductive if for no other reason than the majority of your neighbours won’t want to know about one person’s battles with the EC and you could come across as the cause of the problem rather than the victim.
In your position I would write a letter to your own committee and the community association executive committee saying that you are running out of patience and that you are no longer prepared to accept what seems to be deliberate stalling tactics.
If you have not received notice that this matter is being progressed withing 14 days, you intend to start proceedings at Fair Trading and, if that fails to achiever the desired result, move on to the CTTT where you will seek Adjudicator’s Orders for the strata scheme and the community scheme to move forward and resolve the issue.
This will be a time consuming and expensive exercise for them, should they choose to defend it and you will feel duty bound to explain to your neighbours why their money is being wasted on protecting one EC member’s selfish interests over another owner’s right to the same protection from the elements that is afforded to every other owner.
If that doesn’t work, go HERE to find out how to pursue a claim firstly at Fair Trading (mediation is compulsory) and then go HERE for the form which takes you to the CTTT.
At some point you might want to consult an experienced strata lawyer (not just an ordinary solicitor) to establish the best way forward. In fact, a lawyer’s letter can often have the desired effect without all the hassle and potential heartache of actually taking the issue to a tribunal.
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@daphne diaphanous said:
We are having problems with regular transfers from our sinking fund to cover admin fund shortfalls without ever replacing them. Does anyone have any experience of this?While the continuous re-lending of a sum may seem like a way of siphoning money out of sinking funds, it may just be a one-off readjustment when the Sinking Funds have more than enough money but the cash-flow in the admin fund is a bit thin. The money is ‘lent’, paid bank, then lent again.
However if the initial sum isn’t paid back within the specified period (90 days??) and more money is withdrawn, this is a breach and can be pursued through orders from the CTTT.
Obviously, the long-term answer is to shift the distribution of levies income from the sinking fund to the admin fund until the correct balance is restored.
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Just to give everyone a definitive answer, I received this today from the CTTT:
In relation to the process to appeal a Tribunal order made following an appeal of an adjudication, the Strata Legislation (see Section 200 and 201) states that redress is available at the District Court. The advice in the Tribunal Fact Sheet is correct that the rehearing avenue is not available.
So you can appeal an adjudication by asking for a hearing at the CTTT, but if you are not happy with the outcome of that hearing, any appeal goes to the District Court.
Are we clear on that?
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@drshelley said:
This is getting scary – I was under the impression that we could appeal if we do not get a favourable result from our adjudication submission (which closes in one week) and also to be heard at Hurstville.Let’s be clear n this – you are saying it’s an adjudication which CAN be appealed (by a new application for a hearing).
However, the member’s decision at the subsequent hearing can’t be appealed at the CTTT (only at the District or Supreme Court level).
This is what the CTTT website says (click HERE to read the full page):
Appealing Strata and Community Schemes decisions
The appeal process in strata and community schemes matters differs depending on whether it is an appeal against an Adjudicator’s decision, or an appeal against a Tribunal Member’s decision.
Adjudicator’s decision
If you want to appeal an Adjudicator’s decision you can lodge a fresh application to the CTTT appealing the decision within 21 days of the order coming into effect.
The matter will be listed for hearing and the Tribunal Member may affirm, revoke or make a substitute order. The Tribunal Member may dismiss the application if they believe the matter was appropriately dealt with by the Adjudicator.
When making an appeal application against an Adjudicator’s decision, you may also request a stay order to stop the Adjudicator’s orders coming into effect until after the appeal application has been determined.
Tribunal Member’s decision
If you want to appeal a Tribunal Member’s decision made following the hearing of a strata and community schemes matter, you will need to appeal against the decision to the District Court of NSW.
drshelley continues
Our upstairs timber floor loving modern family have just had an acoustic test done a couple of days ago which (according to the consultant) may meet the BCA – but that doesn’t stop the dreaded noise of this family – there is no mention of the bca in the by-laws.
The BCA is the biggest smokescreen in these issues and it is frequently dismissed by savvy Tribunal members and adjudicators. The by-law is all about noise and disturbance. If you can prove your peaceful enjoyment of your lot is being unreasonably disturbed by the noise from upstairs, then the BCA is irrelevant.
What the BCA doesn’t relate to is the actual activity on the floor. The BCA is a notional benmchmark which takes no account of usage. Would an owner holding Flamenco dancing classes be protected by saying the floor met BCA standards?
If you go to a hearing to appeal the adjudication, try to have any evidence about the BCA dismissed as it is not relevant to the case which should only be about whether or not this specific by-law been breached.
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@Tony said:
Hi Flat Chat Mate
FYI: His name is Just Get On With It – Flat(Chat)Mate is his website rank
Very much appreciate your input as to the relevant provisions – does this mean any concerned lot can basically stop any proposal irrespective of precedents or majority of other owners within the SP.
No. An individual has the right to object and pursue maters through the Executive Committee, Fair Trading and/or the CTTT (not to mention local council). But they don’t have a veto
Further how is the validity of ones argument measured – eg if one obscures 15 % or less of ones view does this equal the same level of concern as someone with a loss of 100 per cent.
This is a matter for consideration by the relevant bodies (listed in the previous response). But common sense would tell you that someone having 100 percent of their view blocked has a stronger case that someone losing only 10 percent.
Further , it would be unlikely in the purchase contract that their be say a clause guaranteeing unrestricted views.
It is accepted in planning that you don’t own the view (although you are entitled to your fair share of daylight).
Finally how does ones right to privacy and use of their own lot, precedence within the SP etc weigh up over a single lot owners concern and therefore right to veto ??
As explained above, there is no right to veto, just a right to object. But, just as a general principle, if your neighbour wants special treatment (nothing obscuring their view when other neighours do have partially obscured views). And as consequence of this you have to suffer unduly, I think any reasonable body would take your side.
What would one see as best next steps ?
Doing this by the book, I think you have to press your owners corp to support an application to install the screen and I think you then take that to your local council for approval. But in both instances, obviously, be prepared for a fight from the neighbour.
Or, you could just inform the Owners Corp that you can’t wait for them to decide, that you are prepared to fulfill any reasonable requirements they may have but that you intend to install the screen as per the original design. If they want you to remove it, THEY take YOU to Fair Trading, the CTTT and the council.
The latter is a riskier strategy but at least it brings the wheelspin of indecision to an abrupt end. Acting reasonably up to the point when it’s not doing you any good, then acting decisively, has an appeal. But be prepared for your action finally galvanising the Owners Corp into doing something – like applying for a CTTT ruling to force you remove the shade.
Alternatively, wait till the new laws come in mid next year when you will be able to apply to the CTTT to force the Owners Corp to make a decision they might otherwise be dithering over at your expense.
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mini said
In NSW this has already been the subject of authoritative consideration: see Ridis v Strata Plan 10308 [2005] NSWCA 246
I wonder if this ruling is too specific to be taken as ‘accepted law’? A pane of glass in a door would be different from, say, a hole in a concrete floor that breaks an ankle or a stairway handrail that gives way when someone leans on it.
In the first instance, the glass was fulfilling its major function, in the cases that I cited (which are not all that uncommon) the common property is not fulfilling its intended use.
I’m not saying Mini is wrong, just that I’m not convinced this applies to all circumstances.
And if there is no comeback for injuries caused by a failure of common property why does everyone get agitated (often needlessly) about OHS issues?
Perhaps the distinction is that the plaintiff in this case was bound by Strata law (being an owner) whereas an outsider would be able to call on a whole other raft of legislation.
Anyone with any other thoughts?
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So, Ancestor, it seems everybody else is out of step except you. This website, our regular contributors and the CTTT are all giving “unreliable advice(s)”.
Firstly, as you did, we recommended that dnightime get professional advice from an experienced strata lawyer.
Secondly, are you seriously suggesting that readers ignore the CTTT’s own factsheet which specifically excludes strata issues from the appeals and rehearing process? Do you think readers will do better if they pursue your theories?
Have you actually done this yourself? Do you know anyone who has successfully rocked up to the CTTT and said, “Your advice is wrong – we are going to do this MY way”?
If you want to get all bush lawyer on the CTTT, and go tilting at windmills, go right ahead and please let us know how that works out for you.
But our advice to our readers is to read the literature provided by the body to which you are appealing, then follow their rules and protocols and you have a much better chance of success.
I’m sorry if this seems harsh but if you come on to the this website and advise people not to trust the advice given – especially when it is sound, reliable, tried and tested – expect a push-back.
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Yep, the District Court for you … where it will be decided on points of law and not whether some jumped up failed solicitor didn’t get enough chocolate on his morning cappuccino.
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Matt
Your question highlights a number of common misconceptions about strata – don’t worry, you are not alone.
Firstly, the overriding power in a strata scheme is the owners corporation (OC) in General Meeting. The executive committee (EC) acts on the Owner’s Corps behalf but its decisions can be rescinded or directed by the OC. In other words the Owners Corp in general meeting is the boss of the EC.
The strata manager (SM) can only act as instructed by the Owners Corp or EC although the SM may have delegated powers to act as and when required. These delegated powers can be removed or over-ruled in specific instances by the Owners Corp or EC. In a dispute over what to do in a specific situation, the Owners Corp rules.
The caretaker can be instructed by the strata manager to undertake certain duties but they can only be within the terms of their contract. The care taker can also be instructed by the EC (as the Owners Corps representative) to fulfill specefic duties under the terms of their contract.
The detail of the contract is the beginning and end of the relationship with the caretaker. For instance, the contract could conceivably state that the caretaker only takes instruction from the strata manager (or EC chair … or whoever).
The caretaker can’t create by-laws and neither can the EC. Only the Owners Corporation in a General Meeting can agree to or “enact” by-laws (and even then by a 75 percent vote in favour).
Hope this clarifies a few things for you.
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That’s your EC, What about when an office-bearer has done sterling wol filling in the gaps left by strata managers?
Every building is different. You really shouldn’t apply your frustrations to other people’s circumstances.
I know some EC secretaries who deserve a medal … and I know some who deserve a bullet. There are no hard and fast rules,If you want to be alerted when anyone replies to your posts or responds to this topic, please register and login, then you will be able to subscribe to the topic. The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers. NB: Longer threads may spill over to additional pages - look for the numbers on the bottom right, under the last post.