This week in the podcast we take a long, hard look at the proposals – well advanced, it must be said – for every strata scheme in NSW to register all their vital statistics on the state’s new Strata Hub.
What kind of information will they want and why do they want it? And what happens if old Geoff, the rusted-on secretary in Flat 4b, forgets to fill in the form or just doesn’t think it applies to your strata scheme .
Are there penalties for failure to comply with this Big Brother-like intrusion into our lives? (Yes.) And how much are they? (A lot … plus GST.)
NB: By “Big Brother” I mean the state snooping in the novel ‘1984’ by George Orwell, not the imprisonment of wannabe celebrities for our voyeuristic pleasure.
And if you think this only applies to NSW, just wait. If it works it’ll be coming your way before you know it.
Anyway, a couple of minor corrections: You will find all the links to the various portals where you can post your observations and fill in your surveys here in this story on this website.
And the fine for not updating your information will be up to $2200 not $2500 as only slightly mis-stated in the podcast.
LISTEN HERE
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Meanwhile, as we emerge from our Covid cloud, it seems we can get back to Australia’s other favourite topic of conversation – apart from the weather – and that’s property prices.
And to get your water-cooler chats going (are we allowed to have them yet?) Sue has discovered a city where apartment prices have gone up 25 per cent in the past year. Want to take a guess which one?
And finally, we discuss the measures in the new NSW short-term letting registry that should put paid to sneaky tenants sub-letting their apartments without their owners’ knowledge or permission.
That’s all in this week’s Flat Chat Wrap.
If you enjoyed listening to this podcast (or reading the transcript), please share it with your friends using the social media buttons on this page.
TRANSCRIPT IN FULL
Jimmy 00:00
Something big is happening in strata, in New South Wales.
Sue 00:03
Good! Is that a ‘good’ big, or ‘bad’ big?
Jimmy 00:07
That remains to be seen. Fair Trading is creating what they call a ‘strata hub,’ where they are putting together all the information they can gather about apartment blocks in the state and they’re making it compulsory that every strata scheme has to provide a certain amount of information.
Sue 00:29
Is this coming from the Building Commissioner’s office?
Jimmy 00:31
No, it’s coming from, I think, Victor Dominello, who is a bit of a…
Sue 00:38
Champion of apartments.
Jimmy 00:40
I was going to say, a data geek.
Sue 00:44
Maybe, the two coincide, sometimes.
Jimmy 00:46
We’ll be talking about that and we’re going to be talking about some strange movements in apartment prices. I’m Jimmy Thomson, I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.
Sue 00:57
And I’m Sue Williams and I write about property for Domain.
Jimmy 01:00
And this is the Flat Chat Wrap.
[MUSIC]
Jimmy
Out of the blue last Friday (as often happens, just before the weekend), Fair Trading dropped a bombshell, which is that they are going to be conducting, initially, discussions leading to legislation… New regulations in strata, requiring strata schemes to, basically file all their details.
Sue 01:43
Is this out of the blue? I’ve never heard of this before.
Jimmy 01:46
Well, apparently, it’s phase two of a three phase process.
Sue 01:51
What was phase one?
Jimmy 01:52
Phase one was the bond’s thing, you know, the building bond.
Sue 01:58
What’s phase three?
Jimmy 01:59
Phase three is; I’ll just have a look! Phase three will expand Owners Corporation reporting to include further building compliance information, like the annual fire safety documents, being uploaded onto the web.
Sue 02:19
Wow, this is pretty immense.
Jimmy 02:21
Oh, there’s phase four, in which we’ll see the strata hub continuing to evolve, branching out to include information and community precinct and neighborhood schemes.
Sue 02:34
It just sounds like Fair Trading are getting a bigger grip, and more control over strata schemes.
Jimmy 02:40
I think they recognize the fact there’s 1.2 million people in New South Wales who live in strata. There’s something like 80,000 different strata schemes of varying sizes, from two apartments up to, you know…
Sue 02:58
Over 1000.
Jimmy 02:58
Yes, so I think they are thinking we need to get a grip of this information now, before it all gets completely out of hand.
Sue 03:08
Oh, that’s interesting. What kind of information are they gathering?
Jimmy 03:12
They want the strata plan number for the scheme; the date the strata scheme plan was originally registered. The strata schemes that are part of a larger community scheme, address, total number of lots, how they are used as residences, or retirement village or commercial activity, or whatever. Plus, their neighbors, you know, that environmental performance thing; they want to know the neighbor’s rating.
Sue 03:37
It would be interestng to rate your neighbors, wouldn’t it?
Jimmy 03:44
When the occupation certificates were issued (if they were issued), date of their most recent biosafety statement, and how many stories they are above ground, which is pretty basic stuff.
Sue 03:56
So, will that be supplied by Owners Corporations, or strata managers?
Jimmy 04:00
Well, it basically comes down to the secretary of the Owners Corporation, because not every strata scheme has a strata manager. So, the buck stops with them, but strata managers can also be involved. A secretary could phone the transfer manager and say “hey, could you do this?” Yes and actually, in this discussion document, they’re asking strata managers, do you expect to charge your strata schemes more for doing this and how much do you estimate you would be charging them? That’s quite significant, because we know that there are certain strata management firms out there who would say “oh, here’s an opportunity to make a killing, so let’s set a fee for this, which doesn’t really reflect the amount of work involved.”
Sue 04:45
So Jimmy, is this a good thing, do you think?
Jimmy 04:46
I think it is. I think a lot of people will find it quite onerous.
Sue 04:51
They sound like simple questions, though, really.
Jimmy 04:53
This stage right now is a chance for ordinary owners and strata managers and committees to chip in and say, look, we don’t think this is a reasonable demand, or we think you are not asking enough questions, because the idea is that it will go online and will be available to most people.
Sue 05:17
So, if I want to buy an apartment in a certain block, I’ll be able to look at it and see how old the block is, all in one place?
Jimmy 05:24
Yep.
Sue 05:24
That’s pretty handy.
Jimmy 05:25
But, contact details are a thing that they’re sitting on, because it’s this whole privacy nonsense. Here are the contact details you will not be able to find online for a strata scheme, under this proposal. The Secretary of the Owners Corporation, the strata manager, the building manager, the date of the last annual fire safety statement, and whether or not a strata renewal committee has been formed (that’s if a strata scheme is planning to sell to a developer).
Sue 05:55
That’s all information you won’t find?
Jimmy 05:57
That’s things you won’t find, unless you are an owner in that scheme. But the strata management thing; knowing the contact details for the strata manager…How often do buildings urgently need to talk to the people next door, in the building next door? They can’t find the secretary; they can’t find the strata manager, the compulsory Owners Corporation letterbox is stuffed full of…
Sue 06:23
Junk mail that nobody ever looks at.
Jimmy 06:25
Obviously.
Sue 06:27
If they do have a strata manager, it would make perfect sense for the strata manager’s details to be there.
Jimmy 06:32
I can’t see any reason why you wouldn’t have the strata manager. One of the things with this is, it has to be updated every year, so if the strata manager changes in the interim, it’s a simple…
Sue 06:46
And if somebody doesn’t have a strata manager, maybe every strata scheme should be obliged to set up maybe, one email address, like admin@ where the building is. And that should be checked regularly by the secretary, as a matter of course, at least once a week. I mean, that’s not particularly onerous. So, people could get in touch with the building that way.
Jimmy 07:06
Secretaries of strata schemes who don’t even want the people who live in the strata scheme to know their contact details; I think that’s a piece of nonsense. If you don’t want to be contacted, don’t stand for election.
Sue 07:19
Yep, that’s quite right. I mean, I was in a building and the chairperson refused to put any of his details (or anybody else’s details), on the notice board for all the residents, because he said, they would be continually inundated with emails and phone calls from residents. When he was eventually turfed out, we put our names and phone numbers and email addresses and we received maybe one phone call, every two months. It was just ridiculous. It’s just an excuse to not be transparent.
Jimmy 07:52
And not have to deal with the very real problems in the building.
Sue 07:56
And people’s concerns and things.
Jimmy 07:57
If you don’t want to deal with the problems in the building, don’t stand for election for the committee.
Sue 08:01
Yes I quite agree. If people don’t give this information, are there penalties?
Jimmy 08:06
Yes, there’s a maximum fine of $5,500 and if you don’t update within 28 days of your AGM (because that’s when things tend to change), I think it’s about $2500, for not updating within 28 days.
Sue 08:25
That’s clear motivation, isn’t it?
Jimmy 08:27
Now, this is all up for discussion and all the links will be there on the Flat Chat website, on the show notes that go with this podcast. So, you people will be able to go in and read the explanatory document in full and go in and take part in the survey, because part of this is people who live in strata, being asked what they think.
Sue 08:48
How long is the discussion period for?
Jimmy 08:52
A good question! I know that the regulations are due to come in, in May of next year. The final date for registering all your information is August of next year. As far as the online discussion goes (the responses), that closes on the 18th of November, so you’ve only got a couple of weeks.
Sue 09:14
Oh, it’s a good job you found out about this, Jimmy!
Jimmy 09:16
Yes, so if you want to find out, go to www.haveyoursay.nsw.gov.edu/strata-report. Or, just go onto the Flat Chat website and follow the link there.
Sue 09:33
What do you think people will say about it?
Jimmy 09:35
Well, there’s a cost, you see.
Sue 09:37
Oh, what what cost?
Jimmy 09:38
Well, they’re deciding (as part of this discussion); should it be $3.00 per unit?
Sue 09:45
Sorry, the cost to whom?
Jimmy 09:47
When you register your information; when your scheme registers, they have to pay to administer the hub, so there’s a fee for registering your information.
Sue 09:57
So, the government is charging us to register our information?
Jimmy 10:00
Yes and the thing is that there’s a cost involved in setting these things up. And the discussion paper canvases two options, really. One is $3.00 per unit in the scheme. So you know, a scheme with 10 units would cost them $30; a team with 100 units would cost them $300.
Sue 10:24
You kind of think it will cost more money to collect that money, than it would to receive the money.
Jimmy 10:28
Well, when you’ve got your 500-unit scheme putting $1,500 in, that kind of offsets. All the small amounts are insignificant and probably cost more to collect them, than it does, but it ramps up. The other plan is to charge a blanket fee of $40 per scheme, but that would be really unfair on little three or four unit schemes, because they’d be paying $10 per owner, rather than a big scheme. I think they’ll probably go for the $3.00. This is a Liberal government; they’re really into user-pays, as part of their fundamental philosophy.
Sue 11:10
So I guess when, as a strata scheme, we’re paying to be part of this project, we’re thinking, what are we going to get out of it?
Jimmy 11:17
Well, what you’ll get out of it is that, as an owner, you will be able to access information about your scheme, especially if you’re in an apartment building where the committee or the strata manager are quite uncommunicative and you want to know, when was our last fire safety thing done; how many other units are there in the building… Information that you might have to give somebody else, for insurance purposes. Or, if you go into the council because you want changes made in your apartment. Basic information like that sometimes, maybe if the committee is not particularly engaged or active, it can be frustratingly hard, just to get simple information, because the person who’s holding that information is not handing it out. Now, if that’s put on a hub somewhere, then that information is available, not just to owners in the building, but also to the government. The government can say “well look, we’ve got X number of buildings that are over this age; should we be looking at policies to take care of them for the future, or even think about well, there’s a concentration of really old buildings in this area. We should be talking to the local council about developing that area.”
Sue 12:33
It’s like a census for strata.
Jimmy 12:35
Very much so; that’s what it is. So, there’s one of these endless surveys you can do online. Again, the links will be on the Flat Chat website, on the story that goes with this. I think people should do it.
Sue 12:50
It could be a good branding exercise for people, couldn’t it? But then, there may be some opposition; people saying it’s a curtailment of our individual freedoms and things.
Jimmy 13:01
In what way? We’re being made to do something?
Sue 13:05
Because we don’t want to give out information about our buildings, because they’re ‘our buildings,’ and we own them. We don’t want other people to know about them.
Jimmy 13:12
Well, you’ve got the situation where you go to buy an apartment in a block, because the vendor wants you to know all the stuff you need to know, then you can find out by a strata search. So you can find out everything that’s in this survey and more, a lot more.
Sue 13:31
But it’s just more inconvenient and costly to do so.
Jimmy 13:34
Yep, but if you’ve got the basic information there online, so that people can say; you know, you can go online and go ‘that building has 15 levels and it’s this age, and there’s this number of apartments in it,’ then when you look at the levies, for instance, you can go ‘that’s a bit high, or a bit low.’ That kind of thing.
Sue 13:57
Okay. I think that sounds promising actually. Bringing strata back to the notice of state government I think, is always a really good idea.
Jimmy 14:05
Well, if government wants to get involved with looking after strata, we shouldn’t be complaining about it. You know, it’s interesting that a friend of ours was looking at buying an apartment the other day, and she got some information about the finances and found out that the admin fund was very slightly in debit, but the maintenance fund was really full-up. It had a lot of money in it and it actually put her off buying the place, because the figures were confusing. If there was more information available to her, to be able to go to the strata manager and say “what’s the situation with this? Why are these out of kilter?” I think eventually she found out that a lot of work had been done on the building and there was more work coming and because of the additional administration costs, the admin fund had been depleted, but the money was there to pay for the work. Now, to me, I was saying, this sounds like a well-run building. It may not have been well-run in the past, but now people are getting things done. She was just a bit freaked-out about it, because she didn’t understand the figures. I think more information is power; knowledge is power.
Sue 15:24
Great. Well, this sounds like a good step, then.
Jimmy 15:27
I’ll be spending the rest of the day, filling in the survey, answering the questions.
Sue 15:34
Is it long?
Jimmy 15:35
No, not particularly, but they do ask your opinion. It’s not just a ‘tick a box’ thing. It’s if you think there are too many people who can get the information or too few, explain why you think this. So, you do get a chance to express your opinion. Right, so off you go, but before you all go off to fill in your forms and do your survey, we’re going to be talking about apartment prices. That’s after this.
[MUSIC]
Jimmy
Sue, you’ve been doing another story about apartment prices, all over Australia. What’s happening?
Sue 16:19
We know during the pandemic that unit prices were quite soft. House prices increased, massively, but unit prices dropped or were pretty stable. In the latest Domain report, which has come out for the third quarter of the year; that’s July to September, we’ve found that unit prices have been rising. Nationally, they’ve risen 1% over that quarter, to a new record price for an apartment in the whole of Australia. What do you think?
Jimmy 16:49
Record price? A standard is a two bedroom unit?
Sue 16:52
Yes, that’s right. The median price across the whole of Australia; all the capital cities?
Jimmy 16:58
I’m going to take a wild guess and say $832,000.
Sue 17:05
You’ve been living in Sydney too long, Jimmy! Nationally, it’s $609,000.
Jimmy 17:12
What’s the figure in Sydney, then?
Sue 17:13
The figure in Sydney is $802,000.
Jimmy 17:18
I was $30.00 out!
Sue 17:21
It’s pretty amazing, $609,000 for a unit, across Australia. You kind of think units have always been a cheaper option, but really, they’re not terribly cheap anymore, because they’ve risen 6.8% over the last year.
Jimmy 17:35
So where are the most expensive places to buy?
Sue 17:38
Well, obviously Sydney, which, you expect, really.
Jimmy 17:42
Because of people like me, who overestimate!
Sue 17:45
That’s right; pathetic! Sydney is the most expensive, at $802,000, as we’ve just said. Melbourne is the second most expensive. I mean, you’d kind of expect that, really and that’s a huge drop, though, from Sydney’s. That’s $576,000. So, that’s a big difference.
Jimmy 18:02
So, what’s the cheapest?
Sue 18:03
The cheapest place to buy in Australia a unit, is Adelaide, at $357,000.
Jimmy 18:10
Really? Three hundred you can get a unit; a two bedroom unit in Adelaide? Wow! Yeah. Adelaide is quite a nice place.
Sue 18:17
It is, but you know…
Jimmy 18:19
It’s a long way from anywhere.
Sue 18:21
It is and it doesn’t have the same kind of wild ups and downs of the rest of the country. It’s a very steady, stable market and it’s been rising really steadily over the last years. The last year was 3.3%, which is a pretty good growth figure.
Jimmy 18:38
Are there any surprises in these figures?
Sue 18:41
Well, yes! Guess which is the third most expensive capital city in Australia to buy a unit?
Jimmy 18:47
I know that units have been going for a lot in Darwin, so I’m going to say Darwin.
Sue 18:55
And you will be completely wrong. The third most expensive units in Australia are in Hobart!
Jimmy 19:03
Wow! Down in Tassie!
Sue 19:06
$532,000. They’re only really, a little bit less than Melbourne. They’re only $50,000 less than Melbourne, which is incredible. Tiny little city, compared to Melbourne’s huge population, but they’ve had incredibly stellar growth. I think before the pandemic, people were starting to move out to the regions a little bit. They were looking for lifestyle; they’re looking for quieter places. During the pandemic, that became a real surge, especially from people moving out from Melbourne. A lot of people have moved into Hobart and their unit prices have gone up by 23.8% over the last year, which is massive, isn’t it?
Jimmy 19:48
So if you were thinking of buying into apartments in Hobart, you’ve left it too late. They’re already booming.
Sue 19:56
There is a big shortage of them as well, because there aren’t many new units being developed.
Jimmy 20:01
If you’re thinking of developing somewhere in Australia, then Hobart would be the place to start building apartments.
Sue 20:06
Yes! There’s places in North Hobart I think (which has been traditionally a light industrial center), and lots of developers are going in there and redeveloping warehouses into small apartment buildings, maybe just six, eight storeys high. There is some opportunity for development, but not very much left and prices are still going up there, but the rate of price growth is softening a bit. And you did say Darwin, but that was the second cheapest capital to buy.
Jimmy 20:33
It shows what I know! One thing I do know about Tasmania and apartments (and this is something I discovered just recently)… In Tasmania, the strata committee can create bylaws, if the Owners Corporation delegates its powers to the strata committee, as we all do everywhere. Normally, for bylaws, you need a special resolution at an AGM. In Tasmania, it can be just the strata committee, that can pass a bylaw.
Sue 21:10
That’s handy, if it’s a good strata committee.
Jimmy 21:12
It’s really awful if it’s not. We know what strata committees are like!
Sue 21:21
You kind of think the apartment market there is relatively immature, because they would have far fewer apartments than they would houses. Most people who would be going to Tasmania for a lifestyle change, would choose to be in a house, but I think a lot of people have been priced out of houses now, in Tasmania.
Jimmy 21:36
Well, we had that thing a couple of years ago, when pre-COVID, people were homeless and sleeping in tents in the parks, because people were turning their apartments over to Airbnb. The government even gave people a grant, if they would turn their apartments back to residential. You get the feeling in Hobart that it’s a nice place; beautiful place to visit, nice place to live…but in terms of apartments and strata, they tend to lurch from one extreme to the next. As you say, it’s an immature market, in terms of the development of an apartment lifestyle, so it will take a while to calm down.
Sue 22:20
Someone was telling me about a person who works for a local government area (not in Hobart, but somewhere else in Tasmania), where accommodation is so short, they’re having to live in their car and they have a good job, and it’s relatively well paid. Although Tasmania; traditionally their incomes were a lot less than on the mainland, so it’s really hard for them, because the price is growing so steeply. It’s okay for people from Sydney and Melbourne going to live there, because the prices look cheap for them, A 23% rise in a year; that’s incredible for people on low wages.
Jimmy 22:57
The other thing we heard recently was that, although the prices are still relatively cheaper, the services there are not as good as you get in Sydney and Melbourne, in terms of health care and education. Because it’s been traditionally, a very right-wing, conservative government, they haven’t pumped the money into education and into healthcare and a lot of people who retire there, get into trouble, because they have serious illnesses that just can’t be treated in the big hospitals in Hobart and Launceston.
Sue 23:34
That’s right, but I guess you go to Hobart; if you get a serious illness, you fly 50 minutes to Tullamarine airport and go to a hospital in Melbourne.
Jimmy 23:43
But if you’re ill, you don’t want to be flying anywhere. Talking about flying there; somebody was commenting in the paper the other day that traveling from Melbourne to Hobart is the equivalent of traveling from Sydney to Orange, in terms of flying. It’s not that far away; it’s just there’s a big chunk of water, between you and them. Folks, if you’re thinking of buying in Hobart, you’ve probably missed the boat, but if you’re thinking of developing there, now’s the time to do it.
Sue 24:18
Sure thing!
Jimmy 24:19
When we come back, we’re going to be talking about something that popped up in the forum, about tenants and Airbnb. That’s after this.
[MUSIC]
Sue 24:33
I know people doing Airbnb properties in New South Wales have just had to register with the New South Wales Government this week, but what is it that came up on the forum about tenants? But it had to go all the way to NCAT?
Jimmy 24:44
This came in as a response to the thing we did last week, about the tenant who had been renting out the parking spaces, the visitor parking spaces, illegally. I asked people if they’d had any other experiences of tenants behaving badly and making money that they shouldn’t have been making, and somebody came back. This is actually much more common, than tenants renting out visitor parking spaces, or anything like that. Tenants renting out their property on Airbnb and this was a case of somebody, where they had tenants in a two bedroom apartment… The tenants decided to rent out one of the bedrooms on Airbnb, and they weren’t allowed to do it. They didn’t have permission to do that on their lease. This forum reader challenged them; ‘your tenancy agreement doesn’t allow you to do that,’ and it went all the way to the Tribunal. It went to NCAT and NCAT said “well, you know, that quite clearly says that you’re not allowed to do that on your tenancy agreement, so stop doing it.” Yep, because the tenant said “this is our right, to do what we want. We pay our rent, blah, blah, blah. We’re not doing anything illegal.”
Sue 25:59
But most contracts would not allow you to sublet, would they? It would say that in a contract, normally?
Jimmy 26:03
It says in the contract that you’re not allowed to sublet, without the permission; the written permission of the landlord. That’s a standard tenancy agreement. I think their argument may have been they weren’t subletting; they were just…
Sue 26:15
Ah, just letting it out casually.
Jimmy 26:17
Yep, to holiday people. He was very unhappy about this and so it went to NCAT and NCAT ruled in their favour, but his argument was, why should I have to go through all that hassle? The new registry that came in on Monday this week (on November 1); if you are a tenant and you are renting out on Airbnb, you have to upload when you register, permission from your landlord, to do holiday letting.
Sue 26:50
Excellent. So Airbnb have come to the party on that, or maybe, the government’s made them?
Jimmy 26:54
Well, I don’t know. I mean, it’s a bit vague. But I think the basic thing is, you are expected to give honest information, when you register on the registry. Presumably, there are penalties for not doing so. If you don’t get a registry number, Airbnb and Stayz and other agencies, cannot list your property. Your property has to be listed on the platforms with a registry number next to it. If you have applied for a registry number and you’re a tenant and you don’t have the landlord’s permission, then you’re breaching some sort of rule, somewhere. I don’t know what the penalties are. I would imagine that if you’ve done that, then the government can bring in this thing of penalties, banning you from the website. You know, if you do it twice in two years, then you can be banned for up to five years, from hosting a short-term rental property. I think for some people, that would be quite a severe punishment. I think most people would be concerned about (basically), lying to the government. Some people wouldn’t at all; like people who rent out visitor parking spaces. Most people want to do the right thing.
Sue 28:06
And it provides some protection for investors, as well. If you’ve invested in a property and you’ve let it out to a tenant, you don’t want the tenant to then sublet out to lots and lots of different people on Airbnb, because there’s going to be lots of wear and tear on your property. You might as well rent it out yourself, on Airbnb,
Jimmy 28:23
Well, this is the thing, and you’re getting the blowback from your neighbors, because as far as they’re concerned, you’re responsible for the Airbnb let. We say Airbnb; that’s a kind of generic term… It’s short-term letting. There were companies who were doing seminars, saying “go out, rent properties, and let them on Airbnb, and we’ll show you how to make a lot of money and we’ll all be millionaires.” People who do that, should get the permission of the landlord. They don’t always do that. And we have heard of cases of people (funnily enough), going “oh, I’ve got visitors coming from overseas. I’ll see what’s available on Airbnb, so they can come and stay near us,” and they look on the website and they go “that’s our apartment!” Right, so that will put paid to that, to a great extent. That’s an action-packed podcast, this week and everybody should go off and fill in the forms. The links are on the website, as I said. Thanks Sue, for again contributing a major contribution, to the Flat Chat podcast.
Sue 29:38
Pleasure Jimmy, being in your orbit.
Jimmy 29:42
And thank you all for listening. Bye.
[MUSIC]
Jimmy
Thanks for listening to the Flat Chat Wrap podcast. You’ll find links to the stories and other references on our website www.flatchat.com.au. And if you haven’t already done so, you can subscribe to this podcast completely free on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or your favorite pod-catcher. Just search for Flat Chat Wrap with a ‘W,’ click on Subscribe, and you’ll get this podcast every week, without even trying. Thanks again. Talk to you again next week.
