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Our strata scheme was registered in 1980 so we are not yet required to lodge an annual fire safety statement and we have managed to fly under the radar and haven’t yet been caught up in the grandfathering of the fire safety legislation.
Rather than wait until we’re hit with a fire order from council, we’d like to start being proactive about our fire safety and we’ll be voting at the AGM for fire extinguishers to be placed on each floor as a low cost, low maintenance starting point.
We also have smokers in the building who traipse up and down the stairs with a lit cigarette and ash and stub their butts on our carpet. Our attempts to pass a by-law preventing smoking on common property has been thwarted several years in a row by said smokers who don’t like to be told what to do.
We also have some residents who are against spending any money unnecessarily where they can’t see an immediate benefit.
Can you guess how much two groups overlap? Yep, if it were a Venn diagram, it would be a complete circle.
So, how do we move past this stalemate and get some common sense on board?
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Regarding the smoking on common property by-law, I would think the easiest solution is for the minority owners – you – to take the scheme to NCAT to get the Tribunal to pass an order that the bylaw be accepted and registered. This is a health and safety issue and should not be ignored.
I’m guessing here – and I’m not a lawyer – but you might look at section 232 of the Act (failure to fulfil a function) and link that to Section 9(2) “The owners corporation has, for the benefit of the owners of lots in the strata scheme … the management and control of the use of the common property of the strata scheme.”
You might argue that an influential minority is preventing the good running of the building and that the scheme should be ordered to pass a by-law that would protect common property and remove something that is hazardous to the residents’ health,
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
Pretty sure the Tribunal can’t order the OC to pass a by-law.
The Tribunal can order the owners corp to take action to resolve a problem. If the best way to resolve the problem is to pass a by-law, then that’s what they are doing without saying as much.
That being said, even if we did have a by-law like this, it’s pretty hard to enforce because you’d have to catch them in the act.
By-laws don’t need to be enforced or policed to be effective. They send a signal to people that certain activity is unacceptable; not having one does the opposite. If I were in your building, I would be taking the OC to NCAT over this – passive smoke kills people and the Strata Act recognises this. Stubbing out cigarettes on common property is already a breach. Both are disgusting habits – and I speak as a former smoker.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
My understanding of the fire safety rules are that the building only needs to comply with the regualtions in force at the time it was built (Its hard to find these rules but they are out there)
However the local council or the fire brigade can apply orders to bring the building up to a more modern standard. (This usually occurs after a fire incident as neither the council nor the fire brigade police buildings compliance. That is what an AFSS is supposed to do)
I understand, talking to a few fire professionals, that councils can be “reasonable” in the type of stuff to be put into old buildings. (But you have to be prepared to work with them)
However the idea of being proactive has merit. The fire professionals tell me that you are less likely to be subject to an improvement order if there are some fire safety measures in place.
You can get an independent report done by a fire safety practicioner. They can assess your building and advise measures to take to be “more modern”. They can’t force you to upgrade everything and their report will save you installing items that are not required.
My strata manager recently published this blog post about forthcoming changes to fire regulations in NSW. The post does not say whether all buildings will have to comply but I suspect even older buildings might have to given the intent of the legislation. I clicked on the link in the post to see the inspection schedule and unless I’m mis-reading something, it’s insane. MONTHLY inspections of fire alarms. Six-monthly for portable fire extinguishers. These measures are pretty onerous, and expensive. I’m posting here as the OP might like to look over this and look into the new legislation (coming next year). https://jamesons.com.au/blog/upcoming-fire-safety-legislation-changes-what-strata-owners-need-to-know/
Here’s what our principal sponsor Strata Choice says about Fire Safety legislation, with regard to older buildings.
Buildings constructed after 1st July 1988, or those with additions/alterations carried out after that date, are required to submit an AFSS and are the subject of a Fire Safety Schedule.
You can read their fact sheet HERE.
The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers.
Hi,
Fire safety upgrade – we need help to navigate this – we are in a mess with owners looking at huge bill – we need advice on a more sensible approach, and any advice is much appreciated.
Our 14 unit 1975 build is undergoing significant remedial works as well as a voluntary fire upgrade. We have a fire report but it seems it has given us all the “bells & whistles” that includes sprinklers in each unit…very very expensive.
It seems no minimum requirement that would satisfy Council is in the report so we cannot get approval to upgrade safely in the most sensible manner (without huge fees for many fixed income owners). What to do?
My question is: Is there an independent fire project manager anyone can recommend that could take another look and work with council for acceptable requirements. Do these Fire Safety companies work with councils to make a plan for the upgrade to ensure non-prohibitive cost but satisfactory upgrades?
We have an existing Building engineer for the remedial works & a fire contractor that seems to have gone awol without fixing the minor works that would have made council happ(ier) with us – to stem off a fire order.
The building engineer has also a report – is this also a fire report? Do council also look at this report?
To be clear, there was no “incident” to trigger the council upgrade, we did have annual fire certs (through another company) – IT WAS VOLUNTARY.
Our Strata Committee seem exhausted, and owners want to participate but scratching their heads trying to sort out what the process is and hope you have some advice to help.
What isn his fire report you Have?
There are fire consultants out there. Pretty common as every new building needs a fire report. The fire report details all the fire measures necessary for that building. If you get a fire report it’s designis to the current fire safety requirements. The fire report will also detail the requirements of the AFSS.
I have heard that in some cases the council will allow some non compliances because of an old building not being compatible with new requirements ( one I can think of is installing fire hydrants on each floor. In some buildings it’s impossible beacuse it makes the egress path too narrow).
Having said that, bringing an old building up to modern fire standards is going to be real expensive . You will need a special levy and possibly look at a strata loan.
If you have an order from the council, there are big fines for not complying or dragging your feet.
There are a lot of fire expert consultants available, so you should get another opinion. Google “building regulation consulting” or “fire regulation consulting” for your area.
You do not have to accept the proposal of your current consultant – they should be taking into account the age of the building (ie, the building code when it was originally built) and its architecture, as well as the costs of the work.
You could go back to the consultant and ask for another design without sprinklers, or if they must be added, then ask for the reasoning, and then talk to another consultant and check the reasoning is valid, or must be applied.The building code on fire regulations is complex, and there is usually a solution that better suits your needs. It’s like when you consult a lawyer, doctor or architect – if you don’t like their advice, get another opinion. If several all agree, then you are probably stuck with making the best of it.
Is this “fire report” something prepared by a fire engineer (or registered certifier, fire safety, in the new speak) or some other specialist? Typically a design brief would be offered first by the C10 (fire engineer) and then a FER (fire engineering report) with your selected solutions. If the latter has already been supplied, you would seem to be well advanced in the process.
Do you instead mean something like a BCA survey was conducted to identify shortcomings in the building? Where they were found, usually performance solutions are offered as alternatives to sprinklers and so forth, if not, I’d raise this with the C10 when the time comes.
As mentioned above, Councils generally recognize the limitations of older buildings and after speaking to various experts, only a tiny percentage get hit with fire orders requiring immediate action. In this LGA, 5 year implementation is typical, one of the council officers I spoke with recently on our voluntary upgrade, mentioned some of the orders he has stretch over 10 years…..you need your BCA/project manager to make exception to the yearly schedule of works required by Council in that case.
The problem seems to be that Councils’ ‘policing’ interventions appear entirely arbitrary and that sometimes fire engineering ‘consultants’ have worked for or have close relationships with Council compliance officers.A Council officer that insists on full compliance of an older building to current safety standards can deliver a windfall fee incometo the various consultants/contractors that oversee substantial and costly compliance works required by an Order.My understanding of the fire safety rules are that the building only needs to comply with the regualtions in force at the time it was built (Its hard to find these rules but they are out there)
However the local council or the fire brigade can apply orders to bring the building up to a more modern standard. (This usually occurs after a fire incident as neither the council nor the fire brigade police buildings compliance. That is what an AFSS is supposed to do)
I understand, talking to a few fire professionals, that councils can be “reasonable” in the type of stuff to be put into old buildings. (But you have to be prepared to work with them)
However the idea of being proactive has merit. The fire professionals tell me that you are less likely to be subject to an improvement order if there are some fire safety measures in place.
You can get an independent report done by a fire safety practicioner. They can assess your building and advise measures to take to be “more modern”. They can’t force you to upgrade everything and their report will save you installing items that are not required.
I think “Mortimer” is wrong – Councils do not get directly involved in fire safety upgrade Orders – rather they require the OC to use an accredited fire safety expert to inspect the building, and to provide a report to the OC of what fire safety equipment is required (which eventually becomes the Fire Safety Schedule). Council will then review the report, and then require it to be implemented (and may ask for changes, which you can negotiate about, or your expert can), and then provide a period for doing so (usually a couple of years).
So each OC should select the accredited fire safety expert with care, and find one that will take into account the owners’ wishes. Note that some fire safety experts are employed by fire safety inspection companies, which afterwards inspect and check the equipment listed on the Fire Safety Schedule each year (or more frequently for some kinds of equipment), and then prepare the Annual Fire Safety Statement (AFSS) which is filed with Council. The experts can innocently or deliberately, produce a report that requires the “bells and whistles”, because they might be unfamiliar with the rules (ie, that the fire safety equipment needs to be reasonable and according to the age of the building, and the building code at that time), or are hoping to cash in on their company being involved with planning and installing the new equipment.
Remember the NSW strata law requires that any job costing more than $30k must have at least 2 quotes. This would normally cover employing a fire safety expert to inspect and report on the building’s fire safety, and the later work to install the equipment. You may have to pay for each expert’s inspection, for them to quote on the job, which is commonly ~$350. Pick your fire safety expert carefully!
Voluntary fire safety upgrades are a good idea. Council will normally accept the building’s plans, as submitted voluntarily, which can be scheduled more flexibly, and so cost less, without being under pressure of deadlines. But the Fire Service or Council can trigger a fire safety upgrade Order at any time – a fire in the building (or many false alarms) will automatically trigger this. But ALL buildings are being brought into the system, and an owner complaining to the local Council about the fire safety in the building will usually trigger an Order too (and make that owner unpopular, when the costs are discovered). Councils are currently working through all the pre-1988 buildings and issuing Orders…
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