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No problem JT,
You’ve been on an EC that may have had “torrents” of long-winded emails, but you are also aware I’ve been on the receiving end of ECs blatantly doing the wrong thing!
Nothing in my post was aimed at being aggressive or personal, but rather requesting some sort of consideration as you did in fact repeat in your post!
Ray2u’s suggestions have little regard for other owners in his scheme and those other owners expect him to take their complaints seriously, as it is part of the committees job to do so. In fact, it can reasonably be inferred from his post that no correspondence is duly considered with a regular ‘get out-of-jail’ free response.
For the record, it’s true that I wholeheartedly disagree with Ray2u’s post, more so because it shows no consideration to the person who is being oppressed at the other end of his email responses.
So for that reason, farewell… It’s disappointing both sides are not being considered here. I truely hope such complaints mentioned by this post are just rethoric, but my educated guess is they are not!
Thom
(JT Please delete my account. I sincerely wish you and your forum members the best with their Strata issues.)
Wow Ray2u,
Your scheme doesn’t seem to function well if you are outright ignoring owners, who pay levies …
[A section of this post has been edited out as it breaches our rules in being unnecessarily personal and aggressive. This may be inevitable in a heated discussion but we have to draw a line somewhere. If readers want to engage in abusive exchanges, there are other strata forums that will allow it. Please go there. This one doesn’t. JT]
I understand there are difficult owners, whose frustration will only be amplified by your statements, but EC members who play games like you’re suggesting are the reason we have issues with strata laws… after all, people who alert the OC to issues, no matter how inconvenient, do so as they care about their investment. It might seem selfish / inconvenient to you, but it is their home we’re talking about after all!
- Let me ask you this, can you really say you’re acting in ‘Good Faith’ by doing what you suggested?
That’s a pretty big gamble Ray2u and I’d urge other EC members to consider the consequences if any such ‘trivial’ matter ends up in court… they can be held personally liable for any ‘bad faith’ decisions. Including the ‘decision’ to do nothing, if otherwise required to act under the law!
My advice would be to take all correspondence directed to the EC serious, and try to understand the owners concerns as best you can. A solution may be as easy as considered response, especially if any of the other EC members share their concerns.
Personally, I would ask your strata manager to provide copies of the EC instruction denying the provision of required documents in sect 108 within 7 days of the date of your letter. I’d initiate mediation with Fair Tradaing and seek an order for NCAT for the provision of all files your entitled to.
I am unsure if you are seeking files prior to initiating proceedings yourself, but you should be aware that privilege can be claimed over ‘legal advise’ for ‘legal’ documents in which you are the adversary. Of course, you are entitled to view all records in matters against any other parties provided your ‘interests’ are aligned with your OCs!
PS I am starting to tire of strata manager responses that they act only under EC instructions… You pay their wages after all!!
Hi Pamster,
You sound like another ideal candidate for Jimmy to use as a precedent for poor NCAT performance.
One thing for sure is that the common law principles re ‘privilege’ cannot be circumvented by Tribunal Members. But if your solicitor served the document on the opposing party then ‘privilege’ may have been lost?
Generally, documents in Tribunal hearings as a whole are considered ‘privilege’ in that they cannot be used ‘against’ parties in other proceedings… But it sounds like the member wasn’t happy with your solicitor not knowing how the Tribunal works rather than anything else.
Still, an idiot is an idiot. Or in this case… a Clown!!
If your matter is serious enough, you should consider a court of law! It could be worth joining the Tribunal under the ‘Hardiman’ precedents too if they have breached their obligations or indeed acted in a prejudice manner that would amount to an abuse of process.
Personally speaking, costs should NOT be awarded in Tribunal proceedings regarding ‘internal’ disputes between the OC and it’s members… It’s fraud on the minority in my opinion, no matter which side of the fence you sit on. Courts can and should award costs though.
I’d love to know who your solicitor is as he sounds great (honest at least). What area of law does he practice?
No-one on here will know your situation in its entirety, so I suggest (do so only if you agree) writing a letter to your Owners Corporation c/o the Strata Managing Agents (“SMA”) and request the following;
Please confirm why my written request re ‘Bathroom Renovations’ dated XX August 2014 [Insert exact date] was not placed on the November 2014 AGM as sought.
As you are aware, the Owners Corporation is otherwise required under Section 138 (2)(b) of the SSMA to respond to such requests in a reasonable and timely manner. This request was duly served on the acting Secretary (SMA) within the required timeframe and I have not yet received a response.
Furthermore, I note that a similar / separate Motion was placed on the Agenda regarding another Owner/s who also wished to renovate their bathroom/s.
1. Please provide copies of the subsequent quotes / paid invoices in relation to the ‘admin’ costs charged by the Owners Corporation to Lot Owners [Insert their Unit / Lot number here] accordingly.
2. Please confirm the precise legislation relied upon by the Owners Corporation to charge individual owners direct for EGMs held ‘on the papers’.
3. Please also provide copies of the quotes and invoices paid in relation to the works completed by the tenant of Commercial Lot XX [Insert Lot number] – specifically in regards to the Major fit-out that included changes to common property (valid s65a SSMA resolutions passed), the bond paid and any practical completion certificates regarding those works.
Millie:
Amend the above as you see fit, but I’d be interested if Whale or Jimmy T can confirm the following;a. Is there even such a thing as a ‘paper’ EGM?
b. Aren’t Paper Meetings are for the EC members (only) to make decisions without an actual meeting being held?
c. Is a quorum needed for ‘paper’ meetings?
Although, it makes sense that h the subsequent ECM in which those resolutions are formally ‘resolved’ does require a quorum to be met!!!
d. Also, $5-7k for a meeting held ‘on the papers’ has to be complete nonsense?
Finally, if your strata manager doesn’t reply, seek to have the NCAT make an order to force the OC to supply you with those documents… To which you are fully entitled to receive.
Fingers crossed you get a positive response, but if you don’t you should keep any written responses as evidence against your SMA and OC. NCAT should make an order for your renovations to be carried out so long as they are internal to your lot.
Hi Jimmy,
I have loads to share with you over the next few months but as I have my case in Court and am also seeking a response from the Principal Registrar, Deputy Pres and President… They should be well worth your while.To be clear, I am 100% in favour of abolishing the NCAT and replace it with an entity that will apply the law similar to a superior court. The findings and games playing the NCAT have engaged in are an ‘Abuse of Process’ in my opinion, but I would also be seeking to join them under the Hardiman principals in a seperate court action, then they will pay for their poor decisions.
Clowns is not the phrase I’d use but we have to remember these people are public servents with the lazy, quick, easy stigmatas that apply being ever present.
Once I have a formal response from them after their investigations (review of submissions, evidence and hearing audio files) is complete, I will give you all their formal responses.
Their is loads more on here that appear to have similar ‘silly’ determinations made by Adjudicators / Tribunal Members and they should be ashamed of their duty to NSW People… I hope the Authorney General takes action against these twits as they are definitely a big part of the huge strata issue NSW currently suffers from.
Thom
Hi Millie,
I have seen advice before from a very competent Strata Lawyer (who wrote the book on Strata Law in NSW) on how to deal with a similar issue.
Once you have informed them of the proposed works, the main part of his advice was to ‘offer’ to pay a deposit to the OC that is to be refunded after the works are complete. If the OC wished to retain anything from the deposit, they would need to provide evidence (most likely Expert report) detailing any (unlikely) damage your contractors would have caused to the common property in order to do so.
If they refuse, the NCAT can make an order approving your internal works bypassing the office bearers entirely!
I am unsure how far down the process you are, but I certainly would not be offering to pay for a general / executive meeting to be held as they can place the issue on the agenda at the next meeting to approve or disapprove. After all, the next meeting should occur within a 3 month gap at most and the OC are responsible for conducting / paying for its own meetings.
If they (EC, forget everyone else for the time being) don’t pass a motion allowing the internal works, or are playing silly beggars just to be difficult, offer to pay the $7,000 in protest and inform them that you will seek to recover the monies in a Court of Law together with any legal costs and damages for Nuisance against them personally (EC under sect 117 SSMA; and Strata or other Managers in General under sect 122).
NCAT are duty bound to install a Compulsory Strata Manager if the OC cannot function properly / not fulfilling their duties so I would collect as much evidence to that effect. All in all, if they are indeed bullying you as can be inferred by your posts, they may have the pleasure of paying dearly for their games playing and / or losing any control of the schemes functions.
Either way, even if your relationship is soured by past conduct, make sure you are courteous and considerate in all your dealings with them and try your best to get / keep everything in writing.
Good luck with the incumbents!
Thom
@Boronia said:@Kenny R said:
The power outlet is adjacent to the car-wash area in the garage and is clearly intended for that use – cleaning and vacuuming of resident’s cars.Any thoughts please?
Seems you are quite happy for residents (presumably including yourself) to use the common electricity supply to clean cars, rather than have them use a lead from their own lot supply?
Honestly, this is such a superfluous issue… If they are ‘stealing’ electricity from the OC, being themselves as well, within the communal car wash area, I take it your in a ‘big’ enough scheme not to even notice.
Even so, there is bound to be minimal cost and maybe put levies up by say $5 annually to cover this behaviour… It will be worth it rather than singling someone unnecessarily and creating a much bigger issue than was ever necessary.
Look at Sahade v Bischoff [2015] NSWCA 418 (23 December 2015) ar, their strata issues have now gotten so bad it has escalated into criminal proceedings and I’d hate for ANYONE on here (all flat-chat users) to end up feeling so bad, so utterly victimised, that they would have such venom for one other!
Heck, both parties could have done some truely amazing things for their scheme if they were only willing to accept each other as equal neighbours. No doubt they’ll have had their worst Christmas ever having to deal with this at this time of the year!
I was very saddened to read this case as they have both been up at each other’s throats in court and at our lovely Tribunal (it was NCAT who had failed them miserably). It should never have gotten so bad, or gone this far… I don’t care who was wrong or right, they both are victims of the current Strata System and I can only thank Victor Dominello for achieving much needed strata law reforms… I can only hope his Regulations go so far as to remove every possible notion of oppressive behaviour against individual owners too!!
I am sure your scheme has much more important issues than this and if it doesn’t, please tell us all where it is as I’d love to live there… I really mean that as it sounds like a paradise compared to my scheme!
WHALE:
Thanks Whale,
The insurers looks to want to settle with me but the other issues don’t appear to be insurable events… We are expecting to have to raise special levies to cover those damages. Our EC have gotten us into this pickle but so far no general meetings have been called for either of them, including my case.
Its like watching a car crash in slow motion but I am very greatful no one was phsyically hurt in my case… even though my building manager was assaulted he is ok now. Personally, he walks around our building like a demon bossing everyone around and I wouldn’t be surprised if they argue aggravated assault!
The new laws can’t come into effect quickly enough… I just hope the regulations reign in strata / building managers and also be a wake up call for selfish EC members as well.
How great would it be to remove NCAT from the dispute resolution process… just strata disputes, they need to be dealt with according to the law.
Happy Xmas and New Year Whale 🙂
If everyone is paying through levies anyhow, even tradies doing work, it would be very petty to stop anyone using common property electricity, especially if it is for short term or minor usage… More important things to worry about than stealing electricity. In fact, you could argue everyone has just as much right to use these services irrespective of whether other owners do or don’t!
Without sounding argumentative, your post sounds like you are being autocratic rather than looking after other owners…….
(the remainder of this para was unnecessarily argumentative and was therefore deleted – Whale)
It’s well for some jimmy, keep calm and have a happy Hogmanay too!
Hi Whale,
Its in the local court (we skipped the Tribunal) as the lawyers believe the EC didn’t have authority to install on someone else’s property but it looks like it will transfer to the Supreme Court ‘Real Property’ list and the OCs insurer won’t cover them as they are claiming it was done negligently!
I will let you know when it’s done, but it will be a while yet. We have 3 other court cases against our scheme now ao it seems no one trusts the Tribunal. They are to do with theft, someone using their apt to make drugs (breaking bad style) and personal injury (security guard attacked out building manager)! Seems I’ll be paying for those matters in my levies too!
@Whale said:
Costa – Schedule 3 of the NSW Strata Schemes Management Act prescribes how Executive Committees must function, and Clauses 6 & 12 set-out the requirements for Meeting Agendas and Minutes.So there’s no need for you to compel your Committee to provide evidence of the above because neither is discretionary, and as you would know from responses to your previous posts Sect 108 enables you to inspect Agendas, Minutes, and indeed any other records of the Owners Corporation.
On a more general note, whilst I can appreciate why Committees may choose not to formally meet to consider every single matter that’s been raised by an Owner and to instead group those together for periodical consideration at properly convened Meetings, I must say that the longer I read and respond to posts on this Forum the more accustomed, but not accepting, I’ve become to the fact that many, many Plans are managed on the basis of a wink and a nod, and too often with little adherence to the provisions of the Act.
In my experience that always works well until the wheels fall off!
Hi Whale,
I just wanted to get some clarification from you regarding your comment that “neither is discretionary”… if say an owner has not received notices or agendas, as well minutes or motions passed at a meeting and the Executive Committee go ahead and instruct the strata / building managers to do something without the knowledge of the other owners… are you saying that they are not valid?I ask because of the issues with my balcony, it seems there is nothing ‘written’ down on the schemes records (s108) or the costs disclosure from the lawyer who had ‘allegedly’ been engaged at the time (almost 5 years ago)! There was a claim that s65a allowed them to change my balcony (which is privately owned, not common property) and they done this when no one was home (my EC knew we would be at work) which is even more disturbing! Is that what you mean about the wheels falling off?
I understand clause 6 & 12 are both mandatory, but is the onus on my EC to prove it was complied with… which would be impossible without a flex capacitor and a delorean?
Also, thanks for all your advice. I hope you’re well (and Jimmy et al) and selling down for the holidays. Have a great Xmas and New Year too.
Thom
Hi Stevecro / Rebekah,
This sounds like it’s more of a police issue now from your last email. It’s probably easier to call into your local station and ask them their opinion or options for your safety.
Everything you have said (last post) amounts to criminal behaviour, and with all due respect, the strata manager has a lot to answer for!
Maybe Whale could advise you legally, but I would ask the Strata Manager to provide a ‘legal basis’ for the allegations made in their original notice / letter to you, before you take any further / legal action.
They may wish to provide you with the original complaint letters without a sect 108 search, but fundamentally they will need to provide a written response with reasons as to why the letter was drafted by them, and if it was on behalf of your owners corporation in the first place!
Whilst I understand the SM has no obligation per say, they wouldn’t want to be held personally accountable or liable should anything bad happen to you or your family as a result of their poor actions. Put them on notice at least, that way you acknowlegde their actions in promoting, or in this case lack of action in curbing the nuisance inflicted on you and your guests by other residents within the scheme.
Either way, I’m a lot less forgiving than everyone on here by the sounds of it, due to my experience with shitty strata managers, but this is not good at all.
Stay strong, whatever you decide to do, remember that ‘your safety’ is much more important, so protect yours as best you can, and by whatever means necessary.
Thom
Hi Whale,
I wouldn’t want Rebekah inflaming the situation with other owners, which is why I suggested she seek copies of the complaints direct from the Strata Manager to assess… But in my experience with Strata Managers, they usually do this sort of thing on the whim, without having the facts first!
The strata manager could have worsened the situation without a care in the world, because they don’t live there, and it’s really the executive who should decide what is appropriate conduct for the good of all owners.
I might be wrong here, but my experience with strata managers is they want to appear like they’re doing something and don’t give a damn about the consequences. I was threatened by my strata manager, and when they forwarded me the ‘evidence’ it wasn’t even me they were talking about!!!
Anyhow, good luck Rebekah and hopefully it all works out for you and your neighbours… “Everybody needs good friends, that’s why good neighbours… become good friends!” Couldn’t resist 🙂