With two major chunks of strata legislation landing last week – Victoria’s new laws and NSW’s proposals for a revamp of theirs – we pick the bones out of the plans and read their entrails for signs of what’s in store in the future.
As usual, there are a few significant changes plus much tinkering around the edges, in both areas, but it’s what the perceived need for these new laws reveals that’s most interesting.
How cosy are the developers and strata managers of Victoria? How many kickbacks and from how many sources do the latter enjoy? And how many loopholes in the law will Victoria need to close before dodgy developers are driven out?
We also touch on how a lack of a strong owners’ and residents’ voice in Victoria (like its northern neighbour’s Owners Corporation Network) has left that state’s legislation, frankly, years behind NSW’s laws.
And on that subject, in the case of the 139 items in the NSW review, we ask how soon can we expect to see those proposals become a reality and what will the process be to get there?
LISTEN HERE
Elsewhere in the podcast we look at a new trend in high-end hotel-style apartments, where you can order everything from room service to theatre tickets from your concierge.
And we discuss the message from the AFR Property Summit that counters the doom and gloom about apartment prices.
Finally, a reminder that the OCN’s Strata Matters seminar is on, on Thursday 9th, hosted by Jimmy and with a guest appearance by Sue (oh, and David Chandler will be there too).
There was a handful of extra tickets newly released on Tuesday. You can try to nab one or sign up to follow us on live streaming via this link.
If you enjoyed listening to this podcast (or reading the transcript), please share it with your friends using the social media buttons on this page.
TRANSCRIPT IN FULL
Jimmy 00:00
I just checked our figures for the podcast. So, nearly 26,000 people have listened to it, so far.
Sue 00:09
Well, that’s quite intimidating!
Jimmy 00:12
I should say, it has been listened to 25,000 times, rather than 25,000 people, but we suddenly got a jump in the number of listeners, just a couple of months ago.
Sue 00:24
Really, why is that, do you think?
Jimmy 00:25
I have no idea, but I wonder if it was the pandemic, or people just passing it on, or something. Anyway, we now have twice as many people listening to the podcast per week, as we had at the same time last year.
Sue 00:41
That’s fantastic!
Jimmy 00:42
So, it’s roughly about 200, a week and as somebody said, if that doesn’t sound like much, imagine if you were organising a meeting, every week and every week, 200 people turned up. You would be quite pleased with that.
Sue 00:58
That’s fantastic. I think it shows that people are getting more and more interested in apartment living, aren’t they, really? More people are moving into apartments and they’re curious, and they want to avoid problems. They want to know a bit more about the politics.
Jimmy 01:10
And maybe, they like listening to you.
Sue 01:12
No, I don’t think so. Maybe you!
Jimmy 01:15
Not at all! Anyway, this week, we are going to be talking about the new laws that have just come in in Victoria, the proposals for new laws in New South Wales, and you’ve got a couple of items?
Sue 01:28
Yes. The AFR had its property summit this week, which was really interesting. They had a big section on residential property, which was mostly apartments. Also, I did a piece for Domain magazine about how new apartments are increasingly becoming like hotels.
Jimmy 01:45
Okay, well, I’m Jimmy Thomson, and I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.
Sue 01:51
And I’m Sue Williams and I write about property for Domain in the Sydney Morning Herald and the Melbourne Age.
Jimmy 01:57
And this is the Flat Chat Wrap.
[MUSIC]
Jimmy
Big week in strata law, last week. On the 1st of December, the new strata laws came in, in Victoria. We’d known they were coming for a while, but they actually became law, on December 1 and last Monday, the New South Wales Department of Better Regulation, issued their 139 proposals for improving strata law in New South Wales.
Sue 02:43
Yes, we had a quick look at that last week, didn’t we?
Jimmy 02:45
We did; a very quick look. I mean, 139 proposals is a lot to get through. I’ve been looking at what the new laws mean in Victoria and it’s quite interesting, when you see you can basically divide it (as they have to some extent), into laws for people who live in apartments and laws for people who build apartments. But within that thing about the people who build apartments, the developers, there’s a whole chunk of stuff about their relationships with what they call ‘Owners Corporation managers;’ what we call in New South Wales, strata managers, and all the different things that they are no longer allowed to do.
Sue 03:31
Is that like the new professional standards thing?
Jimmy 03:34
No, this is different.
Sue 03:37
But do they cover some of the same ground?
Jimmy 03:39
Well, have a listen to this. What they’re no longer allowed to do is appoint themselves as (I’m going to say strata manager), unless it’s a retirement village. The developer can’t appoint themselves as strata manager. They can’t appoint an associate, such as a spouse of an employee, as the strata manager in their building. They can’t vote on any resolution that relates to defects. They can’t propose an annual budget of the Owners Corporation which is unreasonable or unsustainable, and they can’t receive any payment from the strata manager, for giving them the contract.
Sue 04:17
Well, that’s excellent, isn’t it? Doesn’t that really consolidate the division between church and state, so to speak?
Jimmy 04:23
It does, but it makes you wonder, what’s been going on down there, up until now.
Sue 04:28
Good point!
Jimmy 04:29
I mean, they also have things like, they’ve got to act honestly and in good faith, due care and diligence. But the other thing they’ve done is, all the regulations on developers used to be for five years; they are now for 10 years. So the developer (as it’s often called ‘the original owner,’) used to be able to kind of walk away from most of this stuff after five years. Now, it’s 10 years, that they’ve still got an obligation.
Sue 04:54
So does that mean if there’s defects and stuff, that lasts for longer?
Jimmy 04:57
Yes.
Sue 04:58
Great, because in New South Wales, it’s only six years, isn’t it?
Jimmy 05:02
Yes. Although, there is now that duty of care from builders. So the builders now have a duty of care to the…it used to only be to the developers; now it’s to the owners of the apartment. One of the things they’ve brought in is that the unit entitlements have to be related to the value of the apartment.
Sue 05:27
Weren’t they before?
Jimmy 05:29
Well, they were supposedly done basically, on size and location…
Sue 05:35
Like, if it was a big penthouse on the top of the building, it would have a lot more value and so therefore, it would have a lot more entitlements.
Jimmy 05:44
But, a lot of developers (as we know, and it used to happen in New South Wales as well), would cut the number of unit entitlements on the bigger and more attractive properties, and maybe, even on commercial properties.
Sue 05:58
So that they would pay less in levies and so it would be more attractive to people to buy them.
Jimmy 06:03
Exactly.
Sue 06:04
They would get the big payout, but the building would actually suffer, because the people who owned the smaller apartments and in less favourable locations, would end up paying the majority…
Jimmy 06:14
They’d be subsidising.
Sue 06:16
Of the expenses of the building.
Jimmy 06:17
The rich people and the commercial premises.
Sue 06:20
Wow, so they were doing that! Yeah, they were doing that, weren’t they, in New South Wales? We knew that! It hasn’t happened for a while, hopefully.
Jimmy 06:27
Well, you would hope not. So they now have to get a surveyor in, to set the unit entitlements and it has to be based on… I mean, if they’re going to set a price for the new apartments, then that’s going to establish what the unit entitlements should be.
Sue 06:40
It just seems amazing, that it wasn’t law before, really.
Jimmy 06:44
So they don’t have an owner’s organisation that kind of advocates for owners, in the same way that we do in New South Wales, with the Owners Corporation Network. It’s now becoming apparent, I think, that a lot of what’s been going on in Melbourne, has kind of flown under the radar, because they don’t have a particularly active; you know, they don’t have the OCN particularly active. I know that they’re trying to get things moving there. Yes and the lack of that voice means that all these very dodgy dealings have been allowed to continue, pretty much unfettered.
Sue 07:22
Because with the OCN, I think one of the most powerful things is they get together different owners from different buildings and I remember the first ever meeting of the OCN… It was a couple of people from each strata committee, of a lot of the major buildings and the first time everyone got together, it was the first time they were able to say “this is a problem we’re having,” and others are saying “well, we’re having exactly the same problem.” That really makes you understand that it’s an issue across the industry and that’s the point at which you start thinking ‘well, something has to be done.’ The fact that they don’t have an organisation like that in Victoria, means that people aren’t talking to each other across different buildings, and not seeing that their own problems are being replicated, elsewhere and that is maybe, a fault in the law.
Jimmy 07:59
Yes. Remember, our former chairman; if one person complained about an issue, he’d say, it was just one single complaint and if two or more people complained, he’d say, “oh, it’s a conspiracy.” I think the government in Victoria has been a bit like that; you know, just dismissing the issues as they arose, because it wasn’t coming from an authoritative voice.
Sue 08:41
It was easier to ignore.
Jimmy 08:41
Yes obviously it has come from people, that they’ve taken seriously. Getting back to the strata managers; they can’t be appointed for more than three years at a time, which is the same now, as in New South Wales. Their contract cannot require the Owners Corporation to pass a special resolution to sack them, or a unanimous resolution to sack them. Now, presumably, they’re saying they can’t do that because some contracts have included that. Basically, it’s a simple majority, to sack your strata manager in Victoria, now. They no longer can have contracts that allow the strata manager to renew the contract, at their own discretion. There’s so many other restrictions on the technicalities that can be written into contracts, that people don’t even realise are there, until they try and get rid of their strata manager and the reason they want to get rid of their strata managers, is because they’re the kind of people who put these little loopholes in. It sounds like it’s pretty far-ranging, some of these changes? It’s huge. There are basic rules of things that the strata managers must do. They’ve got to be registered and they cannot be registered, if they have been found guilty of a crime. An offence involving fraud, dishonesty, drug cultivation, or trafficking of drugs…An offence involving sexual slavery or servitude.
Sue 10:19
Oh, my god!
Jimmy 10:20
Child pornography or violence, sexual offence or an offence connected with sex work… What have these certain managers been doing?! An offence committed outside Victoria, that would constitute an offence, referred to above, that must have been punishable by a prison term of three months or more. You can’t sack your strata manager because he…
Sue 10:42
Stole a bar of chocolate from the supermarket.
Jimmy 10:45
Which they’re known for. These new laws are more about the owners than the residents. They’re breaking down strata schemes in Victoria, into five tiers. That’s more than 100, 51-100, 10-50, 3-9 and two lots and, there are different sets of regulations. Although, the top two; anything over 51, they’re considered in a different tier entirely, but it allows them to break down regulations to suit the size of the scheme, rather than the one size fits all. Basically, here in New South Wales, we’ve got two lots, which is anything over 100 and anything under 100, which doesn’t make much sense when you get…
Sue 11:39
99.
Jimmy 11:41
Or, when you get down to a 25 lot scheme, which has the same rules as a 99 lot scheme. So, that’s quite forward looking.
Sue 11:52
Do you think any these state government departments get together and kind of compare and contrast and discuss it? Do you think that ever happens?
Jimmy 12:01
I know that the ministries talk to each other.
Sue 12:05
That’s good.
Jimmy 12:06
And they will, as problems emerge in one state, the ‘policy wonks,’ as we call them, will contact other states and say “how have you been dealing with this and how are you planning to deal with it?” Not necessarily because they want to do the same thing, but just because they want to talk to people who’ve already considered the issue.
Sue 12:26
It makes sense to share knowledge in that way. That’s reassuring, that that happens.
Jimmy 12:30
Other things in Victoria… Things like the size of the committee (this is weird)… At the moment, you can have up to 12 members of the committee, in Victoria (I think it’s up to 12, or 13). What they’re saying now is you can have between 3 (it must have at least 3), and 7, although they can decide to have 12. They’re kind of nudging people towards having smaller committees, which is probably a good thing.
Sue 12:58
It makes sense for smaller strata.
Jimmy 13:01
Yes, it’s more manageable. I mean, the problem with a big committee is it’s harder to get a quorum, because you’ve got to have 50%, at least, of the people.
Sue 13:15
But you kind of need the room to have the bigger strata committees, if you’ve got those massive complexes that have lots and lots of buildings, and you just need more representatives. You know, if you have more than nine buildings…
Jimmy 13:28
The other headlines are things like ‘Supporting an Owners Corporation’s Duty to Repair and Maintain Common Property.’ If they need to get into somebody’s private lot to repair common property, then it’s easier for them to get orders, forcing the lot owner to allow them to come in; things like that. ‘Disposal of Abandoned Goods on Common Property,’ which seems to be a universal problem. ‘Availability of Records,’ ‘Availability of the Register…’ ‘A lot owner cannot authorise a commercial entity to be allowed to see the register (what we call the strata roll), for commercial purposes.’ So that’s not allowed anymore. ‘Proxy Farming;’ they’re finally coming around to the same as we have in New South Wales, which is you can have basically 5%. You can have one additional vote, for every 20 owners in the scheme and you cannot carry any more votes on that. So basically, if you want to carry one proxy, there’s got to be at least 20 owners in the scheme. If you want 2, it’s got to be 40, because you cannot divide people up. Lots of changes to their rules, like smoke drift; that’s a new one for Victoria. They can make bylaws, to stop people allowing their smoke to go into other…
Sue 14:40
So that’s smoking, or barbecues?
Jimmy 15:11
It’s not barbecues. Just smoking. Tobacco smoke. You can’t mess with barbecues; that’s un-Australian. They’ll be able to allow people to pay their fees (their levies), by instalments. Sustainability issues come up. There’s a lot in it. In fact, I’ve extracted all this information from the Victorian Consumer Advice website. It will be available in Flat Chat on the website, so you can see it all.
Sue 15:39
I guess you’ll be able to search through it, for anything you’re specifically interested in?
Jimmy 15:44
You can search for anything. When we come back, we’re going to look briefly at the New South Wales proposals and how they’re going to pan out. That’s after this.
[MUSIC]
Sue 16:01
The review in New South Wales brought up, I think it was 139 recommendations, isn’t it?
Jimmy 16:06
Yes.
Sue 16:06
So, how can the government work through all those, to make most of them law?
Jimmy 16:11
Well, it’s interesting; I asked the same question. Unofficially, basically, what they’re saying is right now, they’re pulling apart these recommendations. They’re looking at the things that just need change in the wording of stuff that’s already out there and other things that actually need changes in the legislation. So for instance, one of the recommendations is that there’ll be better education for committees. Now, that doesn’t require a law, because you kind of (presumably), compulsorily make people sit down and go on a course; go and do a seminar. That’s the kind of thing that they can sit down with a committee and sit down with OCN and other stakeholders and say “well, how can we work out programmes?”
Because the uptake; people don’t realise it, but for instance, City of Sydney have been doing a lot of work on educating strata committees, through our friends at Strata Answers and people do get involved. People do go to the meetings and do ask questions. OCN is the same, and we’re having our seminar on Thursday, which is well over-subscribed, but people will be able to see it on live streaming, if they want to. We’ll talk about that, maybe later. There is a demand for education. It’s not like they’re going to have to force people, but it’s merely a case of saying, well, let’s change the wording of that, or let’s enable that. Or, let’s put some budget into that.
There are other things however, that will require a change in the law and that has to be thrashed out; go to committee, go to Parliament. A bill has to be presented and then everybody knows what the law is going to be. One of the things in the advisory is, define the office bearer rules, better. So that’s something that is just a case of changing the wording. There are things like, lowering the threshold for committee members to be removed by the other owners. So if you’ve got a committee member or members who are behaving really badly, and the owners are just sick of it, and they want to get them off the committee, at the moment, you have to have a general meeting and a special resolution passed to do that. Well, they’re going to change it, so that it’s just a majority vote, a simple majority vote. That would require a change in the law, because the law already has established, there are certain ways of doing this.
Things like the notice for AGMs has gone up from 7 days, to 14 days. It’s interesting, because some of these things will be rolled out over the next few months, and some of them we’ll hear about. We might not actually see anything happen for another year, at least.
Sue 19:09
Because they’re so monumental, really. They’re going to need more discussion.
Jimmy 19:13
It would mean changes in the law and there is a process for that, which involves committees and going through Parliament and amendments, and then the final vote. The final vote always sets a date for when the new laws will come in, which is always a considerable time in the future.
Sue 19:34
So in your opinion, are most of these changes good, or are there a few that are glaringly missing?
Jimmy 19:41
I think they’re pretty good. I think they’re tidying things up quite well. The one that fascinates me is that they’re going to examine the advice that strata managers should be giving owners about privacy, because we know what the heart of that is. This debate about the way the law stands at the moment; if your email address is on the strata roll, (and it should be, if you’ve got an email address. It says quite clearly in the law); should that be made available to people who want to see it?
Well, the law at the moment says the strata role should be made available to other owners. A lot of people, especially strata managers, just don’t want that. Now, the owners who don’t want that, as we discussed last week, don’t want it because they’re frightened they’re going to be harangued with emails from other owners, bothering them about things in the building. Some strata managers don’t want to, because they don’t like the idea of owners communicating with each other in secret, if you want; in private, and some strata managers don’t like it, because they think it will reduce the number of people who register their email addresses and registering email addresses is a really good way of getting information out, cheaply. You’re not having to send great wads of paper out.
So, it’s a complex issue. I mean, we have our opinions, as we’ve expressed in the past. But, that’s one of the things that’s in there. It’s not spelled out, but they’ve opened the door to that discussion. I will be interested to see what they come up with. It might surprise everybody and they might turn around and say “you must have an email address, through which you are contactable, and that must be on the strata roll.”
When we come back, we’re going to talk about apartments that are just like hotel rooms, or is it hotel rooms that are just like apartments?
Sue 21:44
A bit of both, Jimmy.
Jimmy 21:47
And we’re going to talk about what was discussed at the AFR property summit, that you attended last week. That’s after this.
[MUSIC]
Jimmy
Sue, you had a big piece in Domain magazine, about how apartments are becoming more like hotel rooms, and even how some people are living in hotels, because they’re like apartments. What’s it all about?
Sue 22:13
There’s this huge trend elsewhere in the world, of hotel-branded apartments. So in London, you can buy an apartment in a hotel-branded block. It be might be some really fabulous Ritz-branded block, so people want to buy an apartment in there, because it is an apartment, but it has great hotel services, as well… Great amenities; pool spa, gym. A huge staff that can service you, whenever. I was going to say, give you a back rub.
Jimmy 22:42
I was going to say, what form does this service take?!
Sue 22:46
Give you a massage. They can turn a bed down for you at night. You know, just like in a hotel, really.
Jimmy 22:54
So they could organise a massage for you?
Sue 22:55
Yes, of course.
Jimmy 22:56
The concierge isn’t going to come up and give you a back rub.
Sue 23:01
No, quite. It’s a trend coming to Australia now, as well. We’re going to get our first hotel -branded apartment building in Melbourne soon. We’ve also got one in Sydney, which is 1 Barangaroo, the Crown Residences. We’ve got an awful lot of new apartments now, which have hotels as a part of the block. They’re kind of a bit separate from the block, but the apartments share some of the services. They do have a different entry lobby, so they do have that privacy, but at the same time, they often share the gym, or they share a creche.
Jimmy 23:36
Well, that’s been the case for a while, but what about these services? Do they do room service to the apartments?
Sue 23:43
They do; they do everything. If you want your shoes cleaned at 3am, you can leave them outside your door, phone down the concierge and they will do that for you. You can live in a really nice apartment building that has a concierge and has a full-time building manager, but you can never really have that level of service that you can get in a hotel, because you don’t have the staff. You know, the concierge might bring up your shopping bags for you in the lift, but they’re not going to unpack it for you and put it in the fridge.
Jimmy 24:11
If you left your shoes outside the door in this building, you’d get a bylaw breach, or they’d get stolen. But yeah, I see what you mean.
Sue 24:23
Hotels always have a big staff, looking after guests and those staff are now available to look after you in apartments, as well. Lots of these new apartments that are coming here now are mainly aimed at really high net-worth individuals, or expats, coming home and they’ve got a lot of money, or downsizers who really want a fantastic lifestyle, and they’ve got an awful lot of money; they can afford to pay for it. They’re offering amazing butler services…
Jimmy 24:54
But who pays for this?
Sue 24:55
Well, you pay your strata levies, which covers a basic level of service. In some of them, you pay an extra subscription level, which allows you to just use the hotel staff as guests might. Some of them have a user-pays model, where I might phone down and say “can you get me some theatre tickets to go and see Hamilton?” They’ll do that for me, but they’ll put it on a bill, and I’ll get a monthly bill for all those services that I’ve used. There’s lots of different models coming up, but they’re finding there’s a huge demand for this. I guess people at the moment have a bit of money, because we haven’t been travelling and people now are thinking “well, we might not travel for another couple of years, perhaps, so therefore, we want to live a really comfortable life.” They’re looking much more at their lifestyle, than perhaps they’ve ever looked before.
Jimmy 25:46
Is this people who are financially rich, but time-poor? Are we looking at those kind of people; business executives and people like that?
Sue 25:53
Yes. Many hotels have business centres and so if you’re a resident there, an apartment resident, you could go down to the business centre and get speech notes written up for you. You know, anything like that, really; anything you want, that you’re prepared to pay for.
Jimmy 26:11
Within reason.
Sue 26:11
Well, absolutely. Within the law.
Jimmy 26:13
As we’ve just realised that strata managers in Victoria can’t be involved in drug trafficking. Yes, so any legal services. Basically it’s like your apartment is a hotel room, in terms of the services provided. Otherwise, it’s just an apartment.
Sue 26:36
Yes, it’s just the lines are blurring.
Jimmy 26:38
And you own it, rather than renting it on a weekly basis, or a daily basis.
Sue 26:43
It’s an interesting trend. I mean, there will be some apartment owners who really don’t want those services. They much prefer to go out into the real world and go out and buy their own shopping, or have their own floristry arrangements. But there are some people who just want everything to come to them. Some people, especially in many other places in the world; because of COVID, they just kind of want to live in a bit of a bubble, and they don’t really want to leave their apartment. In this way, they can get all the services channelled into their apartment. They don’t ever have to go outside.
Jimmy 27:12
I do occasionally encounter people, even in our building (new people in the building), shocked to discover that our concierges are not hotel concierges. They say “can I have such and such done and can you…” “No.” Very politely, I have to say, but they hadn’t made that transition in their minds, between the last time they spent any time in a building like this was when they’ve visited a hotel. Otherwise, they’ve been living in houses and now they come, they make that transition. In the future, they’ll be able to get an apartment in a building that does provide those services.
Sue 27:48
It just reminds me of one of the first stories I had to do when working for a newspaper. What’s the fabulous hotel on the…?
Jimmy 27:56
The Park Hyatt?
Sue 27:57
Yes, the Park Hyatt, on the Harbour in Sydney. When it advertised it had a butler service, I was sent by my newspaper there and I had to ask for the most bizarre things and see how far they would go and they went an awful long way. I found it excruciating, being a really awful customer, but they were so nice about it. I asked them to run me a bath and they ran me a bath. I asked for a tennis partner and they found me a person to play tennis with me. I asked them to bring me in McDonald’s, and they brought that in at one o’clock in the morning. It was just extraordinary and I couldn’t find anything that they wouldn’t do. I mean, obviously, I’m not gonna ask for anything illegal, but they were just so polite about it. I’m sure they swore at me, down at the reception, but yes, I guess in the end, it turned out to be quite good publicity for them. I just died, with every bizarre request I made. Oh, my God, it was horrible!
Jimmy 28:53
But you know, there are some people for whom that just comes naturally, like the world is there to serve them. They pay for it, so they don’t see why that shouldn’t be the case. Talking about trends in apartments, what came out of the Financial Review Property Summit?
Sue 29:11
We had one session on residential and there were a lot of developers there and asset managers, and they were basically saying the apartment sector is extremely strong. There’s an awful lot of investment going into apartments. Build -to-rent is becoming a huge sector now, a huge asset class, all of its own. They see a big future for that. They were basically saying that prices will continue to rise for apartments, but the rate of price growth is slowing, so they will be hopefully, a little bit more affordable in the future, especially with APRA, limiting the amount of credit that people can have and the likeliness of interest rate rises, on the horizon.
Jimmy 29:51
It was interesting, watching the ABC news the other night and their financial report. Alan Kohler said the gap between apartment prices and house prices has never been bigger.
Sue 29:54
That’s right. It’s a great time to buy an apartment, really.
Jimmy 30:05
Because house prices have taken off and eventually (where people have got money to spend on property, but no affordable houses that they would want to live in), they’re gonna come looking for apartments. Maybe, apartments with butler service. Finally, on Thursday this week, we have the Strata Matters seminar, which I will be hosting. David Chandler will be there. He will be making a speech and he will also be on a panel and you’re going to talk?
Sue 30:35
Yes.
Jimmy 30:36
About media.
Sue 30:37
Yes, about when you should go to the media to talk about your apartment building and if it’s going to yield you any good results.
Jimmy 30:44
And what to expect from the media person that you talk to. If you’re listening to this on Thursday, it means you’re not at the seminar and I have to ask, why? Thank you for listening anyway, and we’ll talk to you again soon. Bye.
[MUSIC]
Jimmy
Thanks for listening to the Flat Chat Wrap podcast. You’ll find links to the stories and other references on our website flatchat.com.au. And if you haven’t already done so, you can subscribe to this podcast completely free on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or your favourite pod catcher. Just search for Flat Chat Wrap with a W, click on subscribe and you’ll get this podcast every week without even trying. Thanks again. Talk to you again next week.
