Podcast: High-level parking and low-cost living

This week we look at two apartment blocks that it’s pretty safe to say are at the opposite ends of the social spectrum.

The first is a Housing Commission block that has just won the NSW Premier’s architecture award, stimulating serious high-rise envy and which could be an antidote to Nimbyism as well as the new form of property selfishness, ANTE …“And Not There Either”. (We call it ANOTE in the podcast, but, hey, it’s new to us too!)

At the other end of the scale,  there’s the block being built in Brisbane which is six levels of whole-floor apartments that allow you to park your car next to your home.

Seriously.  You drive into the parking bay, the lift takes the car up to your floor and you drive the vehicle into a glass-walled garage that allows you to drool over it from the comfort of the adjoining pad.  

And let’s face it, if you can afford $9million for a flat in Brissie, your car is likely to be pretty drool-worthy. 

We have an animated chat about whether Housing Commission tenants should be allowed to put their subsidised apartments on Airbnb (or similar holiday rental websites).

And we discuss how dubious, non-academic surveys are of little value except to generate clickbait stories to promote the purveyors of “lies, damned lies and statistics”. 

That’s all in this week’s Flat Chat Wrap.

TRANSCRIPT IN FULL

Jimmy  00:00

This is a bit strange… It’s a Tuesday night and we’re recording the podcast.

Sue  00:04

Yes!

Jimmy  00:05

 I don’t know if we sound any different. We shouldn’t, except we’re well-fed and it’s almost time for bed and I have had a glass of wine, but I think that will be okay.

Sue  00:14

It will help, probably.

Jimmy  00:15

You never know. So tonight, we’re going to talk about two very different apartment blocks, one of which is a surprising award-winner. The other one is surprising in a totally different way. And, we’re going to talk about surveys; just generally about surveys and how much you can believe them.

Sue  00:36

I think five-out-of-ten people believe in survey’s, don’t they?

Jimmy  00:40

Yes, and nine-out-of-ten statistics are made up, including that one. So that’ll give us plenty to get through in the next 20-odd minutes. I’m Jimmy Thomson, I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.

Sue  00:54

And I’m Sue Williams, I write about property for Domain.

Jimmy  00:57

And this is the Flat Chat Wrap.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

Sue, you came across this story; it was in the Sydney Morning Herald this morning, about a surprising award-winning apartment block.

Sue  01:20

It’s an absolutely fabulous building. It’s out in Western Sydney and I think a lot of people look at it and think “wow, it looks pretty cool.” It’s actually Housing Commission and isn’t that fantastic, that Housing Commission tenants can get good apartments, the same as the people who can afford to buy it?

Jimmy  01:37

Well, there’s no reason why they shouldn’t.

Sue  01:39

Yes, exactly. I mean,  the new apartment building only cost about $28 million, which isn’t very much for an apartment building.

Jimmy  01:45

How many apartments are in it, because if there’s only two apartments, that’s quite a lot.

Sue  01:50

It’s got 52 one and two-bedroom apartments. About 80 people live there at the moment.

Jimmy  01:56

How much did it cost?

Sue  01:57

$28 million.

Jimmy  01:58

So 52 apartments; it’s about $560,000 per apartment.

Sue  02:06

It’s not bad, is it  really? I mean, Warwick Farm, where the apartment building is, isn’t a very expensive area.

Jimmy  02:15

But you know, the building looks nice and it’s been built to last; that’s the point. You know, it’s not this thing of “oh, it’s only Housing Commission people who are going to live here, let’s just put up any old tat and they can deal with the consequences.” This looks like a decent building; nice big windows. I don’t know what the out looks like, but it certainly looks like a nice building. So what’s the award it won?

Sue  02:40

It won this year’s  Premier’s Prize for Architecture. The building was developed by the New South Wales Land and Housing Corporation and constructed by Hutchinson Builders and was designed by fabulous architects, Turner.

Jimmy  02:53

Where do I know them from?

Sue  02:54

Oh, gosh, they’ve done lots of really fabulous…

Jimmy  02:57

Did they do those interesting buildings up in Newcastle; is that one of theirs? Anyway, they’ve done really well. They got this award from the Premier and it’s a Housing Commission thing and people are looking at it enviously. And one of the things they’re saying is (because the constant thing we’re hearing at the moment is nimbyism). You know, people are saying “oh, don’t build apartment blocks in our suburbs, because they’re horrible and ugly.” Well, this is neither of those things.

Sue  03:23

It’s not only the nimbyism as well, there’s the other one;  the other acronym that they say; ‘and not over there either.’

Jimmy  03:37

‘ANOTE,’ okay. This is a new one. So people are saying “you can’t build in my backyard, or in their backyard, because I can still see it.”

Sue  03:50

It’s got to be a long way away. But then there was that big survey wasn’t there, about how lots of people want us to build more apartments, because they realise that there’s a housing crisis, so it was a surprising number of people that were saying yes. I think it was seven-out-of ten, talking about surveys.

Jimmy  04:08

I was talking to a developer a while ago, and he was saying that he loves building low-rise apartment blocks in established areas where there are lots of families, because he said these families… You know, you’ve got your traditional 2.4 kids, or in some families, they have more children, and they get settled in the area and then the kids grow up and they want to live near their family. But they can’t, because there’s not enough houses, because you’ve got to multiply the number of houses by 2.4. So what do you do? You build a little low-rise apartment block, and that accommodates all the people who have grown up in the area. So it literally builds communities; I think it’s terrific. I think that Housing Commission block looks great. We used to live opposite a Housing Commission block in Kings Cross. It’s built right above the Kings Cross Station. And people used to get quite sniffy (or snippy) about that, because it had fabulous views down to the Opera House and the Harbour Bridge. But I do notice (if anybody’s listening), a few of these lock key things on the railings outside, so some of these people in there are renting their apartments on Airbnb, it looks like to me.

Sue  05:37

Well, I guess you know, the people there may be less likely to be people who are doing it commercially; they’re more likely to be people who are a bit hard-up. And it’s interesting…

Jimmy  05:49

Sue come on!

Sue  05:51

Let me finish. There’s lots of people at the moment who are going out and getting second jobs; delivery jobs and stuff, because they can’t afford to live on one wage and it may well be that these people are just trying to earn a little bit of extra money. They might be bunking with a neighbour for a while…

Jimmy  06:06

Come on; they’re putting the keys on the railing outside the building…They’re not there; they’re living somewhere else and they’re paying minimum rent on a Housing Commission flat and they’re renting it out on Airbnb. Come on!

Sue  06:23

They might go and stay with their parents…

Jimmy  06:24

I don’t care where they stay; they can stay in the moon for all I care. They should not be putting Housing Commission flats on Airbnb. If they’re making that kind of money, they should be out there with the rest of us, trying to find somewhere to live. They’re stopping genuine, bonafide families, who need all the help they can get.

Sue  06:46

Well, they probably need all the help they can get, as well.

Jimmy  06:48

No they don’t; they’ve got all the money they’re making from their Airbnb flats.

Sue  06:53

It’s probably only peanuts.

Jimmy  06:54

You have no idea.

Sue  06:56

Well, neither do you, Jimmy.

Jimmy  06:57

They’re renting a flat above the station, with views of the Harbour Bridge and the Opera House. I think they’re probably doing okay and getting the rents, I think… Don’t you think?

Sue  07:09

Well, I think they’re probably doing it tough, the same as everybody else really.

Jimmy  07:13

They’re not doing it tough enough, in my book. 

Sue  07:15

I think they’re entitled to try and earn a little bit of extra money.

Jimmy  07:17

I would have them out of there in seconds, if it was up to me. As soon as we’re finished here, I’m going to go around and put superglue in their locks.

Sue  07:18

Oh, you don’t dare!

Jimmy  07:31

Because they deserve it.

Sue  07:32

Rubbish!

Jimmy  07:33

Okay, when we come back (if we come back), we’re going to talk about a completely different idea of how to live in apartments.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

How would you feel if you could just drive into your car park and instead of leaving it down below, the car actually came up in the lift with you and parked beside the apartment?

Sue  08:04

Well, that would be a reminder to clean the car occasionally.

Jimmy  08:06

There’s a new building planned for Brisbane, called The Spire. Oh, is it called The Spire? No, it’s the Aspire Group. It’s called Moray House. So Moray House is featuring sky garages and I was looking at the images (and we’ll have one on the website), and thinking well, everybody can’t have a sky garage next to their apartment, because there’s six floors, but it’s only got six apartments. Each floor has its own apartment and each apartment has its own gym and on the other side of the gym, there’s a glass wall, so that you can admire your vehicle, or remind yourself to wash it, while you’re working out.

Sue  09:13

There is a building in Melbourne like that too, and it seems to be incredibly popular. I mean, they’re really really expensive. Obviously, if you’ve got a room you’re devoting to your car, it’s pretty incredible. But these people have really flashy cars.

Jimmy  09:28

Well, the one in the illustration is a yellow Lamborghini or something, just like the one that Jean Nassif gave his wife. Maybe it’s the same car; maybe she sold it. The car is a yellow sports car, sitting there in its glass compartment. They do have (because people who can afford that kind of apartment, which takes up the whole floor of a building, which has a car park next to the apartment)… They also have parking underground, for their other two cars.

Sue  10:04

Would you like to live in your apartment and look at your car? It’s pretty awful, isn’t it really? I like our car, but I don’t want to sit and look at it.

Jimmy  10:11

I don’t need to see it. Well, you know, if you had a yellow Lamborghini, maybe you would. At least you don’t have to worry about people down below in the carpark, dinging it with their horrible old Ford’s and Holden’s and Toyota’s and things. So here we go…According to the blurb, each apartment can be individually curated for the new owners, with custom components that allow their homes to truly classify as “one of one.”

Sue  10:29

“One of one,” what does that mean?

Jimmy  10:45

The weird language that these people use; I think they’ve run it through Chat GPT… These include a lap pool in your apartment, your sky garage, wellness room and a personalised gym. That’s in your apartment.

Sue  11:01

A wellness room; presumably, that’s so you can have massages.

Jimmy  11:04

Or something like that.

Sue  11:05

A bit of meditation.

Jimmy  11:06

Somewhere to hide your cocaine… The interiors include the highest finishes of Chambord stone, in a complex gain, European oak herringbone flooring (you’d hate that) and bespoke timber joinery. The chef-grade kitchens feature Wolf appliances, an integrated Liebherr fridge and V-ZUG dishwasher.

Sue  11:32

How much?

Jimmy  11:34

One sold for $9 million, to a couple who were relocating to Brisbane from Sydney’s eastern suburbs. So these are people who are downsizing to a $9 million apartment. It’s the equivalent of nearly $35,000 per square metre.

Sue  11:57

They’ve probably got views as well, have they?

Jimmy  12:02

They do, over the river. The river is framed in their windows. It’s not just there; it’s framed in the windows.

Sue  12:12

It’s interesting when you think, what’s going to be the next big thing in apartment living? What’s the next luxury that they could ever come up with?

Jimmy  12:18

The Aspire developers have sold an apartment in Toowong,  the Arc building. Is Toowong in Melbourne? You know, Toowong’s don’t make a right… And they sold the penthouse for $13.6 million. I have to say, in Sydney prices, $13.6 for a luxury penthouse is quite cheap. The residences range in size from 324-square metres, to the 800-square metre penthouse.

Sue  12:20

But Jimmy, what is going to be the next luxury thing? I mean, I think we’ve talked about security, where it just kind of reads the iris of your eyes, so you don’t have to carry keys around and stuff. You can have a gym; you can have a pool in your apartment. That’s amazing. You kind of think, there’s been so many problems with people’s bathrooms, with membranes… The poor people underneath, you hope it’s going to be done all right. What else could people have in apartments?

Jimmy  13:34

They’ve had cinemas, they’ve had music rooms.

Sue  13:37

Rooftop gardens, chickens; bees…

Jimmy  13:41

Chickens and bees on the roof, but not in the apartment. I get the feeling that everybody who wants extra stuff has probably got the option to go and find them, but it’s the stuff that they’ve got that is more expensive. It’s all those appliances that we can’t even pronounce the names of; the herringbone oak floor…

Sue  14:09

Butler’s kitchens and things like that.

Jimmy  14:13

There was a very caustic article in the Sydney Morning Herald the other day. Somebody was writing about being on a train and the other passengers… One of them was described as somebody on their way to their parent’s house, to fill up their bags with food from the butler’s pantry. I don’t know what the ‘ist’ is, when you’re looking down your nose at people for being too rich, but it was a bit nasty and cynical. When we come back, we’re going to talk about the dangers of surveys and how much of them can you believe. That’s after this.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

I was reading the other day in a news story about apartments, that there’s a new survey coming out (I’m not going to say who from, because I don’t think they should get any publicity), about how the number of people complaining about defects in their apartments has gone up from 53% to 63%, or something like that. And it made me think, these surveys are just such a cheap and easy way to promote a product. You know, you want to promote a new chocolate bar, and you say to people “do you like dark chocolate, or do you like milk chocolate?” You come out of the survey and you say “surprise, surprise; 45% of people like dark chocolate, or surprise, surprise, 45% of people would spit dark chocolate out, if they accidentally ate it.” And, we as consumers, we read this and we go “oh, that’s interesting.” So somebody comes out with a survey that says “X number of people in apartments are complaining about defects, more than used to, or less than used to.” You think “oh, that’s terrible; all these extra defects.” But you can’t believe them. That old saying, that there’s lies, damned lies and statistics, is nowhere more true I think, than in the whole business of apartment buildings, and the world in which we live. And it takes me way back to the early days of Flat Chat… The University of New South Wales (and these are people that I like and trust and believe), needed to do a survey on how many people had defects in their apartments. This was back in the days where people just didn’t talk about it…

Sue  16:39

Because they didn’t want it to devalue their buildings.

Jimmy  16:39

You know, don’t talk about it; don’t mention the war…All that stuff. And they were having real trouble, getting a response. So they came to us and said can we ask your readers; can we just send a mail out? And so they came back with something like 65% of people that they’d surveyed, said they had problems in their buildings and I don’t dispute the figures, but as I pointed out to them, the reason those people come to Flat Chat in the first place, is because they’ve got problems. And some of those problems are going to be defects and some of those problems (a lot of the problems are going to be problems with their neighbours) and some of them are going to be both. And I did say to them at the time, you know this is a kind of skewed survey that you’ve got here? You can’t trust it too much. But they basically shrugged and said look, it’s the best we can do and we’ve extrapolated the figures and etc, etc, etc. But for years, that same figure kept coming up and kept coming up and kept coming up. It gave me a little pang of guilt, every time I saw it. Since then, of course, the whole business of talking about apartments has opened up, and they have the means to do much broader and more authentic surveys and it turns out that the figures weren’t that far off.

Sue  16:56

Which is just as well.

Jimmy  18:10

I would just say to anybody, the next time you see somebody saying they’ve done a survey, and X number of people are complaining about this than used to, you’ve got to ask yourself, who are they surveying? How many people have they asked? And are these people who have contacted them in the first place, because they’ve got problems? Because that’s going to skew the figures.

Sue  18:36

I mean, I get phone calls all the time, asking me to take part in surveys and I usually say no, because I’ve usually got too much on (and because I’m so nasty and mean). I guess if they said they want to do a survey about whether KitKat is better or worse than Crunchies,  I would do it, because I feel really strongly that Crunchies are the king of chocolate bars.

Jimmy  19:00

Crunchie bars?

Sue  19:01

Absolutely!

Jimmy  19:02

What they call Violet Crumble here?

Sue  19:04

Well, they have Crunchies and Violet Crumble.  I can’t tell the difference really.  What do you think of green tea KitKat? I’m a bit of a classicist, really.

Jimmy  19:15

You even have trouble with dark chocolate KitKat.

Sue  19:26

To be honest, I don’t like KitKat very much either. I don’t like wafer; I like biscuit.

Jimmy  19:36

If the next time you see a survey, where it says ‘X number of people more than the last time we did a survey think this,’ ask yourself, how many people did they ask and where were those people from? It’s a bit like going into a pub and saying “how many people here drink beer?” If 75% of the people say they drink beer, you cannot extrapolate that out and say ‘75% of the population are beer drinkers.’

Sue  20:08

Which many people do.

Jimmy  20:09

They do. It’s very lazy and you do have to wonder about people who trot out these statistics. I think seven-out-of-ten people who trot out these statistics should not be trusted. All right. Obviously, it’s getting late and we need to stop. Either that, or I need to have another glass of wine. Thank you, Sue. You’ve had a long day. Writing your next book; finishing your next book.

Sue  20:37

Nearly finished; two chapters to go.

Jimmy  20:39

Can you tell anybody what it’s about?

Sue  20:42

It’s about spies and Russians…

Jimmy  20:48

And people on the run? I’m leading up to a joke here, because I’ve got a book coming out next week. Ask me what it’s about.

Sue  20:57

What is it about?

Jimmy  20:57

It’s about spies and Russians and people on the run.

Sue  21:01

They are very different books. Yours is a novel and it looks fantastic, Jimmy.

Jimmy  21:06

And yours will sell by the truckload.

Sue  21:09

It’s nonfiction, so it’s very, very different.

Jimmy  21:13

So we’d better get back to work then.

Sue  21:15

Yours is called Mole Creek?

Jimmy  21:16

Mole Creek.

Sue  21:30

Well, hopefully it does okay. I think you’re launching it next week, aren’t you?

Jimmy  21:35

I’m gonna be very unhappy if it doesn’t. The book goes on sale on August the 1st. It’s called Mole Creek; it’s being launched by James Valentine.

Sue  21:45

And who’s it by Jimmy?

Jimmy  21:46

By somebody called James Dunbar.

Sue  21:49

Oh, and who is he?

Jimmy  21:50

He is my alter ego… It’s actually my first two names.

Sue  21:55

So you’re James Dunbar Thomson, really?

Jimmy  21:58

Yes.

Sue  21:58

Okay. And I think it was because you decided to go under James Dunbar because…

Jimmy  22:04

People call me Jimmy Flat Chat.

Sue  22:06

Jimmy Fat Chat.

Jimmy  22:11

Enough of that; I’m not sitting here putting up with your insults at this time of night. Thank you Sue, for all your contributions, apart from that last one, and thank you all for listening. Bye.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

Thanks for listening to the Flat Chat Wrap podcast. You’ll find links to the stories and other references on our website flatchat.com.au. And if you haven’t already done so, you can subscribe to this podcast completely free on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, or your favourite podcatcher. Just search for Flat Chat Wrap with a W, click on subscribe, and you’ll get this podcast every week without even trying. Thanks again. Talk to you again next week.