Podcast: Chandler’s rating has starring role

This week’s podcast is mostly (but not entirely) focussed on an announcement we believe is going to change the way we buy apartments in NSW and probably across Australia.

Last week NSW Building Commissioner David Chandler announced the first four developers in NSW to achieve more than four out of five gold stars from the state’s revolutionary Independent Construction Industry Rating Tool (iCIRT).

And in a speech to the Toga group – recipients of one of the 4.5 ratings – he said that NSW apartment purchaser now no longer have any excuses for buying below-standard apartments from dodgy developers.

By the way, we don’t think this will only affect apartment buyers in NSW; will a developer with a four-star Sydney rating hide that from their potential purchasers in Victoria or Queensland?

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LISTEN HERE

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You can read about the first four companies to achieve 4.5 stars – Toga Group, Helm, Meriton and Dasco Australia – in this story in the Sydney Morning Herald.

You can hear David Chandler’s speech to the Toga Group in the podcast, as well as credit check agency Equifax executive Alexandra Shaw’s explanation of how the ratings system works.

And if you don’t give 4.5 hoots about star ratings, we also pick the bones out of a story about the scheme where visitor parking have been given over to employees of a commercial tenant in the block – and how the strata committee can’t or won’t do anything about it.

That’s all in this week’s Flat Chat Wrap.

If you enjoyed listening to this podcast (or reading the transcript), please share it with your friends using the social media buttons on this page.

TRANSCRIPT IN FULL

(Timings on these sections may be a little off in places as we rearranged the content in edit)

Jimmy  00:00

Sue, you were at a big event in the world of strata the other day?

Sue  00:03

Yes, on Saturday. I was there when New South Wales Building Commissioner, David Chandler, was presenting a gold-star rating award for one of Australia’s developers.

Jimmy  00:14

Okay, well, we’ll be talking about that. We’ll be listening to David Chandler’s speech, and a couple of other things. I’m Jimmy Thomson, I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.

Sue  00:26

And I’m Sue Williams and I write about property for Domain.

Jimmy  00:29

And this is the Flat Chat Wrap.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

Okay, I think before we talk about what David Chandler said, we should possibly listen to the speech he made. This was at the presentation of the four-and-a-half (out of five) gold stars, for the TOGA Group.

David Chandler  01:02

My role was always to come in and get the customers back. At the end of the day, it’s no good having a regulator who just holds a stick; you’ve got to do it with a purpose and the purpose of this whole exercise (the last three years that we put into turning the compass around in New South Wales), is that we wanted the customers back.

And I think we’re now starting to see customers talking about feeling more confident, and starting to be more interested in getting back into the market. Frankly, for rated developers, I think the next three to five years are going to be the golden years of residential apartment building sales. I think we’re going to see a mass-migration into this country. We’re going to see people moving from other asset classes, into this asset class. I think it’s just terribly important to realise that this is the time to actually let the fresh winds that are blowing in the sails of this industry, start to carry the good boats forward, and leave the ones that are risky, still back in the docks.

So this whole process today, is really about now starting to shift the conversation around… What we did in the last three years, was we had a very serious conversation with the industry, about the industry. We’ve been really very focused on an inward-facing conversation, saying “guys, we’ve got to lift the game. We’ve actually got to do a lot better and we’ve got to show what better looks like, and we’ve got to show what bad looks like.”

Now, most of you who followed my media in the last two or three years; you’ll see lots of exhibits of what bad looks like, and I think we’re moving into the period of time now, where we need to show consumers what good looks like. So from now on, my focus, when I’m communicating to the community, will be to show them what good looks like, but only good through the lens of a rated player. I have no intention of leaking brand value to anybody who’s not rated. So what we’re up to in the transformation, is that largely, the reforms that have gone through; there’ll be further reforms.

In fact, we’re stepping out into other asset classes, as we speak. So we’re going into boarding houses and we’re going into aged care. Whereas a Class 2 was always the starting point for these reforms, expect to see the edges roll out beyond that in the future. But we will now move into boarding houses and aged care, because I think that’s an area where we could lift the game immediately and up, with a more safe and appropriate environment for people in those dwellings situations.

So the reforms which stood up are essentially the RAB Act, the DVP Act, and the Builders and Developers Certifiers Act. People really need to understand those three things all join up together. So you can’t look at the DVP Act and not understand what’s going on in the RAB Act. This week, I issued a draft stop-work order to a builder, who was going through the declaration of design process. And it just simply wasn’t up to the mark and some of the defences that they offered, were in fact, blind to the fact that, unless all of these things led to a credible occupation certificate, it was no good just looking at the parts on their own.

You needed to look at, what is the substance of the occupation certificate, that the certifier has got to produce, because we’re now standing certifiers up, saying ‘you really need to make sure that when you take all the pieces of paper that equal what you want to use to issue an occupation certificate, you better be damn confident that in fact, those pieces of paper mean what they say.’

So a good example is structural certification, where over the last couple of years, it’s been obvious that the industry has broken the procurement of design and construction of structure, down into multiple parts. So we’ve got basement walls, we’ve got pt; we’ve got the main structure… But no one is singularly responsible for the whole shooting match, except for the developer.

So when a developer awards a building contract to a design and construct builder, what they need to be clear about is that the builder might think it’s clever to still break up some of these sub-elements, but they all join up and if the developer doesn’t get that right, then the person who’s going to wear it at the end of the day, is the developer. And I can tell you that the message that we’ve managed to stand up is that, we’ve moved away from developers complaining about the quality of their buildings and saying ‘well, I couldn’t have got a better building, because I can’t get a waterproofer, or I can’t get a block layer.’ Well, how come all the good guys can get the good brick layers and the good block layers and the good membranes, and all the bad guys get the trash? That’s a choice; you can make a good choice, or a bad choice. So the ball rests entirely with the developer.

They appoint the designer, they appoint the builder, they appoint the certifier… They take the deposit off a consumer and at the end of the day, they go back and say to the consumer “we’re good to go. The job’s finished. I’ve got an occupation certificate, now settle.” Well, what we want to make sure, is that the consumers’ position in that is far more viable than it’s been in the past. So looking back and saying, what did we want this transformation of the industry to look like? We needed to have an outcome that said ‘well, did you all want an outcome where all the bad guys were crumpled up in this corner, but you didn’t know who all the good guys were?’

Because unless you had that line of sight, then I don’t think we would have changed much, because the guys would have crawled out of a corner here, and come back and done exactly what they were doing for the last 15 years. We want them to stay in that corner, and never crawl out again. So the only way to do that, is to create a market-led ratings capability, so that consumers can see who all the other guys are. Now, that’s 80% of everybody, and they’re 20% of whats left over; we don’t need that 20%. So it’s the 80% that consumers need to see.

Now governments are not in the job of saying ‘that’s a good guy, that’s a bad guy. That’s a good guy, that’s a bad guy…’ That’s not what governments do. Our job is to contain these guys. So we needed to work with the private sector, to come up with a market-led way for consumers (for the first time), to have a line of sight to some form of trustworthiness indicator to say ‘that developer is trustworthy, that builder’s trustworthy; don’t worry about the one’s that aren’t… We will deal with them.’ So now we have that tool.

So we’ve got 160 people Brad… Signed up, to get rated at the moment. We’ve got over 55 that are through the process. We’ve got some that are a little bit shy about their scores; some thought they should have a 5, when they got a 3. What we’re saying is three is good to go. Don’t be too shy next time you get rated; get a 3 1/2; get a 4.3 and good to go; 1 or 2.. Sorry about that; doesn’t look too good. Maybe, you’ve got a bit more homework to do. So for the first time, consumers have got a tool to help them make a decision. And we were out on a job, a project recently, a Deicorp project, where I actually met consumers who had gone and taken their deposit off somebody who wasn’t rated and took it across and put it with Deicorp.

And that’s happening everywhere; we’re now starting to see real estate agents are coming up to me and saying ‘Dave, this is the best thing since sliced bread for us, because we can now count on sell against some of these bad guys, and actually steal the deposits back.’ That’s a great thing for consumers, so I’m urging consumers to really take this seriously. You now have a power card, but if you don’t use that power card, I can’t help you. If you buy a car, you go and get a good quality rating and you investigate it. You don’t buy lemons anymore. Don’t buy a lemon apartment anymore!

Now a final word on iCIRT and, and Equifax. I want to call out iCIRT; I want to call out Equifax for being a first mover. When I came into the role, I made it clear that we needed a tool like this, and they were bold enough to invest in it. Now, I expect they’ve invested millions of dollars into making this capability. They didn’t do it because they didn’t want to make a profit out of it; don’t get anything wrong… I don’t think they’re there for the good of mankind. I think they’re there for what makes the world go around; profit, and profits’ a perfectly fine thing. But what they saw was an opportunity in New South Wales, to create a sandpit, to stand up a global product.

I have no doubt in my mind that this is a globally-intended product, and it’ll be in many, many more places than it is today, simply because we’ve stood it up in New South Wales. Now, from here on in, I will talk about the desire to have an iCIRT-like rating, because the last thing I want, is Equifax to have a monopoly. So we’ve been banging on the door of Standard & Poor’s and Moody’s and saying ‘guys, when are you going to turn up with a competitive product to Equifax? Surely you don’t want them to have this global market opportunity on their own?’

So, while I’m pushing really, really hard on iCIRT, you’ll see me now talk about iCIRT-like ratings; like ‘hello others, when are you going to offer a similar sort of product?’ Because these products are now underpinning the next phase of consumer confidence. Apart from getting customers back, as part of the reforms, we had to get the insurers back. And the insurers are now coming back to our market, and they’re using New South Wales as the signature piece for that.

So you’re going to hear more about 10-year warranty insurance, and you won’t get 10-year warranty insurance, unless you’ve got a rating. So you won’t just walk in the door and not have a rating and think you’re going to get it; you’re not. So we’re going to make the value proposition for consumers in New South Wales. The proposition that is the best one in Australia, because I think the pain we’ve gone through in New South Wales, has to be rewarded with the fact that once you’ve done the pain, you then get the gain. So I think we’ll have a competitive advantage in New South Wales. This is not just regulatory reform; this is social and economic reform, on a scale that hasn’t been seen before. 

So we’ll look back at the end of next year, when I finish my role as Building Commissioner, and I hope that we can say we’ve delivered on a competent supply chain of new and important housing; that we’re doing a lot about making sure that the consumers are confident to buy their product. And most importantly, that the insurers are prepared to underwrite that product. Not just for one day, but for 10 years.

What a turn of the dial that will be, when I can recall on day one in the committee’s, that they said ‘Mr. Chandler, do you really think you’ll get the insurers back in the market?’ The answer was ‘yes, I really, really do.’ And now some of those doubters are coming up and saying ‘wow, we never thought that was possible.’ So, a very, very positive day for you, Alan, and I’m just really so grateful, that your company has led amongst the (what have we got published at the moment? 23/25)? 26 -rated developments. We’re not talking about ‘little shows’ either.

You’ve now got Meriton across the line; Bill Berger across the line… You’ve got an increasing number of people who are coming out and saying ‘I’m rated.’ I hope we’ll have 100 by the end of the year. I just did a quick count-up through the people that I think who are rated, because Brad can’t tell me the names of all of the rated players, until they’ve actually said you can publish it on the website. But my estimate now is that rated developers are now producing about 8000 of the apartments in New South Wales, going forward.

Now if we start 14 or 15,000 new apartments in the next year, Alan, that’s over half of the apartments that are due to start, that will be undertaken by rated players. Consumers, that is absolutely fantastic and we’ll get to 60, to 70, to 80% of all apartment sales in New South Wales, by the end of next year, I believe, will be undertaken by a rated player. Consumers, you’ve got a really, really clear choice from here on in; just don’t deal with an unrated player. So thanks for having me along and congratulations!

Jimmy  13:45

He seems really positive, after what has been a fairly troubling year for the Building Commissioner, doesn’t he?

Sue

Absolutely. Well, next week, he’s going off on a two-week vacation, because he says he’s absolutely exhausted. I think it’s taken a lot out of him, really.

Jimmy  18:12

Okay, when we come back, Sue, you’re going to give us your summary of what he said at the meeting and what he said to you, in your interview with him. That’s after this.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

So he sounds like he’s just getting started in many ways, doesn’t he?

Sue  18:33

Well, he’s certainly on a roll. And I mean, he’s such a great speaker; he speaks in a really good way. I found it really interesting, when he was talking about how this rating system hopefully, is the beginning of a bright new future for apartment buyers in New South Wales, because it really gives us a clearer idea, of which are the good developers and which are the bad developers; the ones that don’t have any rating. They’re the people who either have not come forward for a voluntary rating, or have been denied a good rating. He’s basically saying ‘well, you know, consumers, you’ve got that power now, to say yes or no and if you buy a lemon in future, that might just be your fault.’

Jimmy  19:12

What were the highlights of the speech for you, Sue?

Sue  19:15

I think the way he talked about this new rating system being a bright new dawn for apartment buyers, and now because we can see developers being rated well, or not being rated at all, it means that we can make the choice between a good developer and a bad developer. So therefore, we have the power in theory, not to buy a bad apartment. And also, I found it fascinating where he’s saying that he wants to really clean up the country of bad developers, really. It was really funny; he said developers with a mobile phone, a $2 company and a ute… no longer are they able to move into the industry. And if there are really minor developers there, who aren’t going to be rated and don’t have a really good business plan, they’re not going to be able to proceed to bigger buildings. You know, he’s introducing modules to make sure that developers are trained, before they can go onto the next rung of the ladder.

Jimmy  20:13

So basically, people would start off developing houses…

Sue  20:19

That’s right; before they can go onto apartments.

Jimmy  20:22

 Class two buildings.

Sue  20:23

Yes, like six storeys, and then big towers; they can’t possibly come in, and just go straight for those big projects.

Jimmy  20:29

Because theoretically, you could do that right now, if you can come in and convince a bank to give you the money. All you have to do to get the bank to give you the money, is to persuade enough people that the fabulous drawings and computer-generated images of your apartment block, are actually going to be built. So people put their deposits down; you go to the bank… You say ‘I’ve got the deposits for this. Can you lend me the money to build it?’

Sue  20:58

That’s right. But now, because developers are being rated, financiers (as he said), are kind of becoming a bit more cautious about lending money to people who aren’t rated. So they’re making use of this iCIRT tool, to make sure the developers are in a really good position to begin with. So they’ll probably deny finance in the future, to those two-bit developers, who’ve got nothing more than shiny brochures.

Jimmy  21:21

Now we keep talking about David Chandler… He is the New South Wales Building Commissioner; does he have any sense that this impetus might carry over to other states, or other countries even?

Sue  21:34

Yes, he’s basically saying that now, a lot of national developers have told him that the building standards New South Wales demands, are so rigorous, that they are doing their buildings across the country, according to the New South Wales regulations. So he really hopes there’s going to be a movement to adopting these kinds of regulations and this kind of system, all around the country. And the iCIRT system, and another system that he’s put into place, the Building Trustworthiness Index, mean that buildings are going to be rated in future, as well. He hopes that’s going to be a global index, because for buildings in Australia, about 40% of building materials come from overseas, so we want to know that those are good materials, as well. Like the combustible cladding that was imported from countries and it wasn’t up to our standards.

Jimmy  22:25

Are there any other areas that he’s getting into?

Sue  22:28

That’s right. I mean, as he said there, aged care and boarding houses, but more interestingly (perhaps for us), is the fact that he also has the power from the legislation, to go and look at older buildings now. And he’s sort of shifting his focus, perhaps, from new buildings (and making sure they’re built properly), to looking at maintaining and owning older buildings. And at first, I think he’s going to look at ones that are under warranty; up to six years old, but he has the power under his legislation, to look at ones that are under 10 years old. So that’s quite significant.

Jimmy  23:02

And I recall earlier this year, we spoke to him, and he was talking about the older buildings that have had renovation and remediation work done, which doesn’t necessarily come under the legislation. You know, certainly not the stuff that applies to new buildings, and he wants to have a look at those building blocks, because he thinks that there’s a huge variety; a huge range of quality of work being done. I mean, some of it might be done by a reputable builder, some of it might be done by a handyman.

Sue  23:37

Sure, absolutely. Because he showed me some photos on his phone, of buildings which had defects and where the defects were being rectified in a terrible way. I mean, one picture he showed me, was where a wall was leaking water onto a switchboard and so somebody had put in a plastic sheet, to protect the electrical switchboard from the water. So that’s pretty dangerous! And also another one, where I think a ceiling was leaking and the person doing the rectification work had put up a series of umbrellas.

Jimmy  24:12

Wow!

Sue  24:14

I mean, I think he sees some amazing things. He showed me quite a few photos of;  it’s kind of like ‘building porn,’ almost… It’s kind of so horrendous and awful.

Jimmy  24:25

I wouldn’t know; I have to take your testimony on that! One of the things that surprised me about this, was that of the three companies that have had their gold star ratings, one of them is Meriton.

Sue  24:40

That’s right, because the presentation on Saturday was to the TOGA group, for the 4.5 star rating. The other two companies, which have also earned 4.5 stars (so the top one, so far), are HELM (it’s run by Mark Monk), and Meriton. [Dasco Australia have also received 4.5 stars]

Jimmy  24:59

Now I’ve got to say; I don’t think anyone would disagree with me that for many, many years, Meriton had a reputation for, let’s say, quantity over quality.

Sue  25:14

Yes, maybe so, but apparently, they’ve got a fantastic construction manager in there now and David Chandler reckons he’s the best construction manager he’s seen in Australia, and he has really high standards. I expressed the same surprise to David and he basically said, well, you know, we want to bring developers up… We want to bring them up with the tide and if some developers are improving, then we have to give them credit for that.

Jimmy  25:42

So this star rating; I mean, he likens it to basically, doing your research, when you buy a car… You go on the car websites, and you get all these reviews of what a car is like to drive and what the maintenance costs are, and things like that. I mean, I know people who will buy Subarus, because a couple of years ago, statistically, it was proved that Subarus spend less time in the garage, than most other cars. So what he’s aiming for, is that you will do your research. Obviously, there are other developers coming through; it’s not just going to be three developers… You do your research to find out which developers are reliable and purchase accordingly. He seemed to be saying ‘if you go off the list, and choose developers who are not; who failed to get a rating, then basically, you’ve made your bed; you gotta lie in it.’

Sue  26:46

But as you were saying, he’s (as well as the new buildings), also looking at maintaining and looking after all buildings. And it’s also developed this continuing occupation protocol. You know, in the past, if a building had dangerous defects, sometimes the whole building would be evacuated. We’ve seen that so many times in the past…

Jimmy  27:07

Mascot Towers and the Opal Towers.

Sue  27:10

And then it’s difficult, because the building’s reputation is trashed, the residents are upset….They’ve got nowhere to live. He’s developed this protocol, so if there’s say, a problem with maybe, a fire order, he’ll go to the owners corporation. He’ll get the fire and safety people together and say ‘what kind of things can we do to make the building safe now and what can we do to keep people in the building?’ So things like, in one case, he got some of the fire equipment updated immediately and he also put in a fire warden 24 hours a day, to make sure nothing went wrong. And then afterwards, the owners corporation committed to repairing the problems, because it was out of warranty. But they managed to do that, while keeping all the people in the buildings inside, which is a fantastic thing.

Jimmy  28:01

Because you’ve got the dilemma for people like David Chandler, which is when they identify that a building hasn’t met the fire safety requirements… The worst thing that could happen is if there was a fire, and people were injured or killed, and they had known about it.

Sue  28:20

Yes, absolutely. So if they can make a building safe and they don’t have to make everybody leave the building, that’s a fantastic outcome, really.

Jimmy  28:28

Right. So I think we’re going to be hearing a bit more from Mr. Chandler, once he’s had his two-week break.

Sue  28:35

I think he deserves that break, don’t you?

Jimmy  28:38

Absolutely. The next speaker was Alexandra Shaw of ratings agency, Equifax, who explained how they work and what their ratings mean.

Alexandra Shaw  13:56

The iCIRT, or the independent construction ratings tool by Equifax, is a five-star rating scale and provides a business with a star rating outcome. Businesses with three gold stars and above, are classified as trustworthy. In order to obtain a gold-star rating, constructors are required to participate in an independent and rigorous review.

This includes a detailed review of their projects, processes, key people, governance structures, key trading partners, related bodies, financial capacity and resilience. Those that are able to obtain three-gold stars and above, are eligible to be recognised on our register of trustworthy players. And at the end, you can all click on our QR code and it’ll take you to that register. It is super exciting though, that for the first time in New South Wales, through the use of the star rating, buyers now have access to independent and trustworthy information, to enable informed decisions when purchasing a property. A choice made easier, by knowing which businesses have the capability, the competency, the reliability and the resilience, to deliver good-quality buildings.

The tide is turning in New South Wales… The energy and commitment to improve the confidence in the industry, by those builders and developers who are doing the right thing, is clearly very noticeable. We evidence this by the volume of businesses that have stepped forward to have their business iCIRT-rated. We currently have over 150 businesses who have committed and are in the pipeline to be assessed. Interestingly, but not surprisingly, the improved transparency has been achieved without the need for heavy-handed regulation.

I think it’s fair to say that the good players are sick of being brought down by the untrustworthy players and have stepped up to lead this transformative change. The trustworthy path players are passionate about us, the end consumer, deserving better. Being iCIRT rated is therefore a way to differentiate and highlight the trustworthy players. Many of you here today, would not be aware that the TOGA group last month, were awarded the iCIRT transparency award, at the top 50 Master Builders Association. This award recognised the builder that provided this most significant transparency across their business.

And furthermore, more recently, the TOGA group have yet again stepped up and have completed an iCIRT rating on another entity within their group. Well done, TOGA, and I’m sure TOGA will intend to publish their rating, in the not too-distant future. So keep an eye on buildrating.com. And finally, it is important to note that we also as consumers, play an integral role in also helping to uplift the confidence and transparency within the industry. And we can do this by firstly, being aware of what iCIRT is. And secondly, by having the power to choose to only work with iCIRT-rated players. Tell your friends, tell your neighbours, tell your family about iCIRT, and always ask the question from your builder and developer; ‘are you iCIRT-rated?’ And furthermore, why not just go straight to the source of truth, and log into buildrating.com, where you will see a list of the trustworthy players. Thank you.

Jimmy

When we come back, I’m gonna put you on the spot again, about something that’s come up on the forum, and see what you think the appropriate response to this issue should be. That’s after this.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

And we’re back. Sue; strata guru for a week. Here you go again! Somebody has been writing to the forum about their apartment block, where there is a commercial property in the strata scheme. The person who owns the business is on the committee, and he (or she), has handed out electronic pass keys to their employees, to allow them to use visitor parking.

Sue  29:29

And they’re not allowed to use visitor parking; they don’t have any visitor parking within the building? 

Jimmy  29:33

Well, they have visitor parking within the building…

Sue  29:35

Sorry, the company doesn’t have their own allocated parking within the building?

Jimmy  29:40

Presumably, it’s used by the person who; you know, they’d only have a couple of spaces. But their employees come in and fill the visitor parking spaces.

Sue  29:49

That’s terrible!

Jimmy  29:50

 Now they say that they are not residents, therefore they are visitors.

Sue  29:57

Well, they’re not visiting a resident, they’re visiting their office, so maybe that’s the difference.

Jimmy  30:03

But the owner of the building says nothing defines them as not being visitors, because his property is an office.

Sue  30:12

Well, maybe if they have two designated spaces for allowable parking in the building, they should be allowed two pass keys, and all the others should be cancelled.

Jimmy  30:23

So this came up, because this person (this business person), apparently is on the committee and it’s been raised by residents that they are not bonafide visitors, and therefore, they should be getting notices to comply; that they’re parking in visitor parking, and they shouldn’t be. The strata manager has said that there’s no legal avenue for pursuing them and the committee decided the other day, not to pursue the illegal parking. And the funny thing is, that the strata manager is right, up to a point… You cannot issue notices to comply to people who are not residents or owners in the building. So the fact that these people are not residents, but not visitors, means that they can come and go as they please. Obviously, the person they should be chasing is the business owner.

Sue  31:17

Absolutely. It’s a really frustrating question, isn’t it and more and more now, new apartment buildings are mixed developments. You know, they often have cafes downstairs, or restaurants, and people really like that. They love the convenience; there might be a couple of offices… There might be places they can hire to work themselves, if they don’t want to work from home. So it’s a great idea in principle, but it’s really quite difficult, when you’ve got the interests of a commercial facility and residents often competing. We need to have better rules and a better landscape, allowing those interests to be protected.

Jimmy  31:55

Well, my view of this is that; you know, somebody’s written to the forum and said ‘can you suggest a bylaw? Where can I get a bylaw that would cover this kind of thing?’ My view is that a one-size-fits-all bylaw is not going to work in this case. Every strata scheme has its own particular foibles and needs. For instance, if you’ve got a strata scheme that’s got a lot of older people, they are going to need spaces for people to come and spend two or three hours with them. You know, doctors and physiotherapists, or whatever. Whereas, if you’ve got a strata scheme that’s got a lot of young people living in it, they may well have friends who come and spend the whole weekend with them and take up the visitor spaces that other people might use.

Sue  32:45

That’s a good point.

Jimmy  32:46

So I think every building should have a bylaw that says ‘these are visitor spaces and this is what we define as a visitor. A visitor is somebody who spends no more than two hours, or somebody who if they stay overnight, they’ve got to come in after six o’clock and they’ve got to leave before nine in the morning,’ that kind of thing. But each building needs to sit down, actually.

Sue  33:11

And spend some money, I suppose, on a lawyer, to actually get a proper bylaw drafted.

Jimmy  33:15

And ask the owners and ask the residents, what they want, which too few buildings do.

Sue  33:21

That’s true.

Jimmy  33:22

There’s absolutely zero chance of the building that’s being discussed on the forum, passing a bylaw that restricts the person who has this business, from allowing their employees to come and park, because that person is so influential. That’s one you’ve got to take to tribunal, just for the sake of saying ‘we have a definitive answer here. We are defining what a visitor is, as far as our strata schemes’ concerned.’ And the Tribunal can say ‘go and get a bylaw that establishes this.’ And then everybody can move on. Thank you again. It was interesting to hear David Chandler, and your thoughts on what he’s doing and where he’s going. And thank you all for listening. We’ll talk to you again soon. Bye.