Forums Levies and Unit Entitlements Current Page

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  • #10690 Reply | Quote
    Faraway girl
    Flatchatter

      again we are having more problems with the initial owner / developer of our 14 unit strata scheme. Early in 2016 the developer advised us and the other owner ( only 2 Apartments had been sold) that we would need to pay 1/3 of the very large water bill received by him as we were the only people living in the complex. He said he would also pay 1/3 even though he only lived here part time. This was despite the fact that he had a full time maintenance person who was watering lawns sometimes overnight and from time to time left the hose on for days at a time . In addition to our quarterly levy we paid the developer our lot percentage amount ( 7%) of this water account . 

      Two more people have now bought in to our Strata scheme, the initial owner/developer has now sent our new neighbours and us an email stating that we are indebted to him and due to this outstanding debt we do not have the right to vote at the First AGM which he intends to hold shortly. He has also stated in that same email that he would not support our nominations for a position on the Strata Committee and as he has the majority vote then he will have the say, he says. He still owns 10 units and now intends to transfer one to his partner (who is an overseas country citizen) so he can retain the majority vote. 

      My questions are these  :

      1. How should we respond if he does not allow us to vote at the first AGM?

      2. How should we dispute his claims that we owe him money for the water?

      3. Should we apply direct to NCAT for an adjudicator to appoint a Strata Managing Agent so this guy can be removed from his position of “Owners  Corporation” during this initial period? 

       Your advice on this would be very much appreciated 

    Viewing 15 replies - 31 through 45 (of 49 total)
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    • #26722 Reply
      Lady Penelope
      Flatchatter

        I personally believe that a user pays system (i.e. individual meters) will end up serving you better in the long run. Individual meters have their advantages, particularly when you use tank water in addition to mains water. There is no incentive to save water if there is only one main meter and the water bills are divided according to unit entitlement (UE). Those tanks will empty quickly if no one is concerned about water saving. Under the  UE system a single person in a 3brm apartment ends up paying the same as 7 people living in the same sized unit when clearly the water usage is much less. Also, it is difficult to track down leaks in the water network if there is only one main meter. If a tap is leaking then an owner may think that it is not worth caring about as they are only paying for every fourteenth drop!

        As for your current problem with gaining access to a copy of the bulk bill …keep trying via the developer owner. You cannot be expected to pay a bill which you cannot see proof of.   Document all your attempts to resolve the issue. And seek assistance from the Office of Fair Trading from someone who is familiar with problems in strata in the initial stages. 

        When are the individual meters being installed? 

        #26726 Reply
        Sir Humphrey
        Flatchatter

          I agree with LP. Individual meters are better. Fairer and more environmentally friendly. Our townhouses were built with individual meters but for many years the OC paid a single water bill for the whole site. Eventually it was resolved at a general meeting to be billed individually. Part of what convinced people was that a small number of units were found to have been consuming very much more than the average. It was annoying to those who had been making effort to conserve water to learn they were subsidising profligate use by others. 

          #26742 Reply
          Faraway girl
          Flatchatter
          Chat-starter

            Yes Sir Humphrey and Lady Penelope , I agree that individual meters are much better for water in a Strata Scheme, for environmental and equity issues. However, this developer is one of a minority here on the coast who determined not to install individual meters but chose to just have one meter for the total scheme which was built in 2014/2015.  The Strata Managers we have spoken to have been very surprised  that he did not install individual meters.

            Just to be clear :

            Each apartment has  two seperate water supplies. The first is for mains water which is used for everything other than toilet, cold washing machine tap and balcony tap.  The second supply is from the tanks which is used for toilet, cold washing machine tap and balcony tap as required by the Development Approval ( DA). When the tanks are almost empty the tank water feed is replaced by mains supply until the tank level increases to an operating level.

            The four current apartment owners are happy to pay for the installation of a meter on the mains supply to their apartment, and pay for the water they consume from this supply. The developer will still only receive one account from the water authority ( the Council).   The common property of breezeways, lawns, water features and gardens  etc. will not be metered separately. 

            The developer also wants each apartment owner to pay for a seperate meter on the tank supply. ( 2 meters in each apartment).   We do not see the need to meter the tank supply as the usage of mains water in the tank supply system is seasonal . Mains water only cuts in when there is insufficient rainfall which in this part of the world is usually a couple of months in the summer period. 

            We would all, of course, pay the Lot Entitlement ( LE) amount for the balance of the water account after we have all paid the amount of our mains water usage. 

            So my questions are: Should we read the main meter ourselves and deposit what we think is our LE amount to contribute to the water account; and 

            What is your view of having two meters in each apartment, one to measure the mains water supply and the other to measure the tank and occasional mains supply combined? 

            #26743 Reply
            Faraway girl
            Flatchatter
            Chat-starter

              Lady Penelope, on 13/3/17 you said ” It would be far more accurate to leave the water bill out of the levy assessment at this early stage and instead have the water bill divided according to the unit entitlement whenever the water bill comes in i.e. a separate bill. The owners should be given a copy of the scheme’s bill to enable them to verify that the amount charged to them is correct. This would be a more efficient and responsive way to ‘top up’ the Admin Fund.”

              The  owners in our Strata Scheme would be happy to do this, however, this developer believes that we should each pay for the water by dividing the account by the number of occupied apartments . As only two apartments had been sold in 2015 and 3/4 of 2016, he stated we owed him 1/3 of the water Accounts  ( he occupies one apartment part time and only our apartment and one other had been sold). After August 2016 he claims we owe him 1/5 of the accounts as two more apartments had sold. 

              In terms of topping up the fund I am concerned that whilst we pay a reasonable levy $2400 pa, what is this for as we have never been given a budget. Does this mean that when the electricity bill for the common property is received,  we pay our LE  % of that, same for insurance , same for all other costs. The question is , if we have to pay extra money on top of our levy, what is the point of paying a levy in the first place? 

              #26744 Reply
              Lady Penelope
              Flatchatter

                If I was in your situation I do my utmost to have as little to do with the seemingly incompetent developer/owner/manager as possible, and that includes avoiding any common water bills, whether they be mains bills or tank bills. It may be several years before all 14 lots are sold and it would appear that your life will be continually beset with the problems that you have already mentioned.

                If it means paying an extra couple of hundred dollars to install another water meter for the tank then that is the option that I would chose. In other words, I would gladly pay for the two separate meters. Make sure that the water meters are easily accessed by the meter readers. 

                Trying to read and calculate the correct amount that you have to pay from the mains water meter for the common property is not something that I would like to undertake and may not be necessary, particularly once an OC has been established.

                “The individual meters for the units are located downstream of the master meter and their consumption is deducted from the master consumption for billing purposes. Any residue (common area usage) is billed to the Owners Corporation.”

                The Owners Corp common property bill for common property usage is paid by the OC from the Admin Funds. Unlike water for personal use, the common property water usage should not fluctuate too greatly so should be able to be ‘guesstimated’ and assessed before an AGM and included in the levies. A plumber may be able to assist you set the first common water Admin Fund line item for common water.

                I am not sure what region you are in but the Hunter Region have produced a booklet that may assist your scheme in installing separate meters. Perhaps you have seen it? It includes a lot of helpful advice such as best practice for installation, by-laws etc.  

                https://www.hunterwater.com.au/Resources/Documents/Guidelines–Manuals/Individual-Metering-Guideline.pdf

                #26748 Reply
                Faraway girl
                Flatchatter
                Chat-starter

                  Thank you Lady Penelope. We are South of Sydney so not in the Hunter nor the Sydney water authorities . I have read a lot of the information on both the Hunter and the Sydney sites and often think   If only…..

                  however as the Hunter booklet says ” Multi-level strata developments are excluded from the individual metering process due to accessibility issues” 

                  That is us.    We are therefore unable to look at retro filling individual meters to be read by the water authority and have consulted the plumbing company which did the original plumbing of the building and the answer is that we are stuck with a single meter but can have sub meters to enable us to pay the developer , and eventually the OC when formed,  for the mains water that we consume.   There is no way of separating the mains water from the tank water consumed through the tank supply line to each apartment so if we were to have this supply metered and we paid for water in accordance with that meter as well as the mains meter, we would therefore be paying the developer for tank water. 

                  Thanks for your fast response. 

                  #26749 Reply
                  Lady Penelope
                  Flatchatter

                    Faraway girl – Some considerations for you …… Installation of the water meters is only the first step. Then the meters need to be read.

                    What is your Council’s position on reading individual mains water meters? Some councils will only read the one water meter for the building as a whole, and then they bill the strata scheme directly.

                    In some situations it is up to the strata scheme to read the individual water meters.

                    It’s also up to the strata scheme to pay the water bill to Council, raise invoices to the individual lot owners for their usage and percentage of costs and then chase those lot owners for payment.

                    The way to solve this issue is to approach your council and request that they enter a sub-metering agreement with your strata scheme. Council can then read the individual meters and bill each lot independently.

                    NB: The link included in my previous comment offers some suggestions on how to write the sub-metering agreement and by-law for your OC. 

                    Your tank water meters would not be under the control of the council and may need to be read by a local plumber. To save costs on reading the tank water meters the tank water readings do not need to occur at the same time as the council reading and could perhaps be less frequent. 

                    ++++++++

                    Apologies if this is not possible at your scheme. I didn’t realise that you were a multi level scheme.

                    Perhaps just the sub meters for the mains water should be installed and not the tank water meters. You may need a plumber to read the sub meters and work out the individual water bills if council are unable/unwilling to do it. 

                     

                     
                    #26750 Reply
                    Jimmy-T
                    Keymaster

                      Just out of interest, how many of the apartments have been sold so far?  You must be close to the point where you can hold your AGM and take control of the building (bearing in mind that chummy has his vote reduced to one third of his holding until he has sold more than half of the properties).

                      If you want to be alerted when anyone replies to your posts or responds to this topic, please register and login, then you will be able to subscribe to the topic. The opinions offered in these Forum posts and replies are not intended to be taken as legal advice. Readers with serious issues should consult experienced strata lawyers. NB: Longer threads may spill over to additional pages - look for the numbers on the bottom right, under the last post.
                      #26751 Reply
                      Lady Penelope
                      Flatchatter

                        Faraway girl – To obtain some more information from you: Did you enter into an agreement with the Developer when you purchased your Lot as to what your levies were to be? Do you have a copy of it, or can you ask your conveyancing solicitor for a copy of it? How was the figure of $2400 arrived at? Was water mentioned and if so did you sign an agreement as to how the water usage was to be divided?

                        I think Faraway girl has said that 4 lots are sold with the D holding 10. Usually only one more Lot would need to be sold to make up 1/3 of the aggregate unit entitlements to trigger a “leap” out of the “initial phase”, but that depends on the aggregate unit entitlements that have sold versus those that are remaining. Fingers crossed for a speedy sale … but it is a slow process by the look of things! Having such an unwieldy type of water arrangement is enough to scare potential buyers away.

                        #26752 Reply
                        Faraway girl
                        Flatchatter
                        Chat-starter

                          A quick answer to Jimmy before I spend some time reading Lady Penelope’s newest advice. 

                          Four of the 14 apartments have been sold, however three of these have a Lot Entitlement of  7% and one has 6%. The developer has one for his own use with a LE of 15% and the rest are still for sale.   This means that only 27% of the LE are sold as the original owner’s LE is not counted according to the SSMA 2015.   Once another apartment is sold then we will be able to insist on an AGM being held.

                          we have not given up on going to NCAT to have a Strata Manager appointed by the Tribunal, however, we have to have a letter from a SM who is prepared to do the job and we can’t find one as this Rogue has scared them all off.  We are waiting to hear from one SMGroup  who are considering whether they will do it and if so we will go to the Tribunal with evidence that this Strata Scheme is dysfunctional and request that a SM is appointed.   If we had not had to find a willing SM we would have been to the Tribunal some time ago. 

                          You have been very helpful through all our troubles Jimmy and it is very much appreciated. 

                          #26753 Reply
                          Faraway girl
                          Flatchatter
                          Chat-starter

                            Thanks Lady Penelope. When we purchased our lot ( completed apartment) there was no agreement for levies and we were told verbally ( I know, I know) that the levies would be set once 40% of apartments were sold. The developer told us that he was happy to meet the costs in the meantime.  We moved in in July 2015 and there was one other person who had purchased in April that year.  In January 2016 we asked to meet with the Developer who was advertising the apartments for sale. We talked about the costs of maintaining the complex ( two stories with shared security garage on ground floor with  apartments on 1st and 2nd floors. ) in this discussion, not a formal meeting, no agenda or minutes, we agreed to make a contribution to the upkeep of the complex and the developer then advised us that he would be happy if we paid $2400 plus our LE % of the annual insurance .  We had a gentlemans agreement on this but as we know know gentlemans agreements only work if it is between gentlemen or gentlewomen.   We paid the levy for that first quarter of 2016 and 7% of the annual insurance in January 2016.   There is no signed agreement . 

                            In April that year the developer was billed nearly $3000 for water use in that quarter. He then told us we were to pay 1/3 of this as the 3 of us, ourselves, the other owner, and the developer were the only ones living here. We paid 7% of this to him. The water had been used for watering of lawns and cleaning common property, which the developer denied , but has subsequently been proven. 

                            The developer set the levy for the first two purchasers at $600 per quarter plus LE % of annual. insurance cost . The next 2 purchasers have had their levy set at $675 per quarter plus 120 kLs of water per year ( 40 kLs per quarter) despite one LE being 7% and the other 6%. 

                            There is no signed agreement . 

                            #26754 Reply
                            Faraway girl
                            Flatchatter
                            Chat-starter

                              Just for interest , we and the first purchaser had sub  meters installed in our apartments to measure the mains water we use. We have photographed our meter at the end of each month for the past 8 months as has the first purchaser. We have used 24 kLs in the 8 months and she has used 10 kLs.  A big difference to the 10 kLs per month that the last two purchasers are required to pay. 

                              #26755 Reply
                              Lady Penelope
                              Flatchatter

                                Faraway girl – This is all highly unusual! As you have pointed out the levies should not be set the way have been set. This alone is an issue for dispute. 

                                This is definitely a matter for the Office of Fair Trading, and possibly NCAT. Good luck with it. It certainly has been a rough ride for you all so far. 

                                #26759 Reply
                                Faraway girl
                                Flatchatter
                                Chat-starter

                                  Thank you Lady Penelope.  I’m not sure whether we could have come through all this unscathed had I not found Jimmy’s column in the SMH and subsequently then his web site. Without Flat Chat we would have had no idea what to do. Jimmy T has been incredibly supportive and very very generous with his time in providing information and advocacy on our behalf and we can never show just how grateful we are. The Office of Fair Trading should be providing an annual fee to Flat Chat for the wonderful advice provided. Thank you also for your time and advice. 

                                  #26770 Reply
                                  Faraway girl
                                  Flatchatter
                                  Chat-starter

                                    Lady Penelope, yes that is right, only one more sale will allow us to have an AGM and form the OC and SC. we have heard on the grapevine that one and maybe two are entering contracts of sale and if this proves correct I think our problems might be over. We now have to hope that the D doesn’t get elected to the SC as we would just end up with more problems. We have our fingers crossed. Thanks for your help. 

                                  Viewing 15 replies - 31 through 45 (of 49 total)
                                  Reply To: Rogue developer out of control
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