Podcast: Blame the housing crisis on Nimbys

It seems we have a new culprit on whom to blame Australia’s housing shortage. The Nimby mantra of “Not In My Back Yard” seems to be the latest target for the finger-pointers, blamers and shamers of the housing industry.

Sue has collated a raft of newspaper articles here, here and here, all of which say that the fault for not enough homes being built lies with local authorities who cave into their constituents’ demands not to have high-rise buildings in their burbs.

Look, there are many factors that have led to the current lack of housing and the subsequent soaring rents in Australia, but there is no one, single contributing issue.

That said, one of them doubtless is having too many residents saying no to high and even medium rise development proposals in their areas.

Fortunately, we have a solution that.., well, it won’t keep Nimbys happy – nothing will do that – but it might make them less unhappy than they otherwise might be.

And we follow-up a story about yet another supposed crackdown on dodgy real estate agents, extending that into a minor rant about Fair Trading’s pee-weak responses to complaints about strata managers.  That’s all in this week’s Flat Chat Wrap.

Transcript In Full

Jimmy Thomson  00:00

Hi Sue, how are you going?

Sue Williams  00:02

I’m going fine, thanks. And where are you today?

Jimmy Thomson  00:05

Today I am at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris.

Sue Williams  00:09

Are you coming back to Sydney?

Jimmy Thomson  00:10

I’m on my way back. I’ve got a stopover in Hanoi and I’ll be back by the weekend.

Sue Williams  00:17

Great; fantastic. So you’ll be back just in time to do a personal face-to-face podcast?

Jimmy Thomson  00:23

Indeed. That will make a difference; stop all this technical stuff. If people could only hear all the toing and froing that goes on between us, and the shouting at our computers. I wish Zoom would stop messing around with their interface, because you just can’t find the things you need. Okay. Everybody’s talking about NIMBYs being the cause of the housing shortage…

Sue Williams  00:50

That’s right; everybody’s piling in.

Jimmy  00:52

We’ll have a chat about that. We’ll have a chat about how we might fix that problem. We’re also going to talk about a story on real estate agents getting into trouble and (yet another) Fair Trading crackdown on dodgy real estate agents, and (maybe), dodgy strata managers. I’m Jimmy Thomson, I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.

Sue Williams  01:16

And I’m Sue Williams, and I write about property for Domain.

Jimmy Thomson  01:19

And this is the Flat Chat Wrap.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

NIMBY’s; it’s NIMBY’s that are causing the housing shortage?

Sue Williams  01:39

That’s right. I think everybody’s getting piled into the NIMBYs. Everybody’s trying to blame NIMBYs for saying that they don’t want any tall towers near them. They don’t want lots of apartment buildings. And it’s interesting, because there are some people who keep saying “well, we don’t need big, huge, massive towers… We need medium-density. We need towers which are maybe, 10-storeys high.” Maybe, that’s much more of a solution. Because I guess, when people say “no, we don’t want any changes in our suburb,” they’re all envisioning the kind of towers that we see at Rhodes in Sydney, or at Docklands in Melbourne. They think of the worst possible scenario. But there are some great tall towers, that are doing really well and creating fabulous neighbourhoods. In Sydney, we’d think of Central Park as a really great example, which was just a horrible old brewery in previous days and now it’s a really thriving, multicultural, exciting, vibrant neighbourhood.

Jimmy Thomson  02:37

We’ll talk about solutions later. Let’s talk about where these areas are; there was an article, you sent me, about the areas where NIMBYism is most rife. I guess the first sign of that is the lack of approvals of new buildings. But that’s not always just about objections from local people, is it?

Sue Williams  03:03

No, that’s right. It’s also about space. It’s about protecting view corridors as well, if you’re near the harbour, or near the water in Sydney. Lots of things can be a reason for not having many development applications. And particularly now, development applications are really much, much lower, because building costs are so high. Developers are really nervous and because the housing market hasn’t picked up as much as they’d like, they’re not sure if they’re going to be able to make their money back yet. Developers are a bit nervous, and they might just be going to the kind of areas that they know, and where there are already lots of apartments. And they might be a bit more nervous to go to areas where there aren’t so many apartments, or where there haven’t been many new developments in recent years. There can be lots of reasons for suburbs being blasted as NIMBY suburbs I think, when maybe they don’t quite deserve the title.

Jimmy  03:55

Yes, but there are areas of the city where if there’s even the slightest hint of a medium-rise block going up, everybody gets hysterical.  I mean, the local councillors; if they don’t object to medium-rise or high-rise buildings, they’ll probably get voted out at the next election. That would certainly play on their minds, wouldn’t it?

Sue Williams  04:20

That’s right. And that’s a problem with having such a short election cycle as well, I suppose. It doesn’t give people the time to become embedded and to make real changes, because they’re all nervous about what the electorate will say about them at the next election. That’s always really hard, too.

Jimmy Thomson  04:38

There’s also the problem with these medium-rise and high-rise buildings increasing traffic. I mean, it’s not just the overshadowing. It’s like bringing lots of people and lots of cars into what might previously have been quiet suburban areas.

Sue Williams  04:54

And it’s funny, because whenever an apartment building gets proposed that doesn’t have enough parking for all the residents, there’s always a bit of an outcry about that, saying “oh, it’s not fair! People need to have cars; they deserve car spaces,” in all these new buildings. You can’t have it all-ways really. Sometimes, if you have buildings that only allow one car space for every three apartments, maybe that’s a really good idea. Maybe they have spaces for Go-Get, where people can just rent cars very, very easily, within their own building. There’s  lots of ways of getting around these issues. I think people start saying “no, we can’t have places with no cars,” and then say “no, we can’t have places with loads of cars.”

Jimmy Thomson  05:40

And they also say “well, we don’t want the increase in traffic, but we don’t want people who do live here to not have enough car spaces, because they’ll start parking in suburban streets.” There’s always somebody that has something to complain about… Does this mean that the state government has to get more involved in these decisions? I mean, they’re already quite heavily involved, if the project is above a certain value; do they need to get more involved and basically say to the council’s “look, you are too close to the issue, to make an informed decision?”

Sue Williams  06:19

It’s very hard, isn’t it? Because people will immediately say “well, that’s undemocratic. We vote for local councils, on local issues.” But the thing is, if these local councils are being very slack about allowing new buildings to go ahead, then really, there’s no alternative than for the state governments to get involved. I mean, they give lots of areas targets, but some of those targets are woefully short. The areas just aren’t matching those targets, whatsoever. It’s unfair to other areas, who are trying to do their best to come into line. It can’t be one rule for one and a different rule for other people. So maybe, state governments do need to get more involved.

Jimmy Thomson  06:59

That’s a scary thought… One of the articles you sent me mentioned the fact that the previous Planning Minister, Rob Stokes, had a plan for sustainable development in Sydney (or in New South Wales), and that was scrapped by Anthony Roberts, when he came in as Planning Minister, in the Perrottet government. Now, people are saying “well, let’s have a look at Rob Stokes’ plan again.”

Sue Williams  07:29

It’s interesting, isn’t it, how it goes around and around? And I think Chris Minns, our Premier, was always against tall towers, but now he’s saying “I think tall towers are a really good idea.” I guess circumstances change, and people start realising the reality of the situation; that we just don’t have enough homes and we are going to get a lot more migration here, so the need for new homes is absolutely urgent.

Jimmy Thomson  07:59

When we come back, we’ll talk about some possible solutions. That’s after this.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

And we’re back. Sue, are there any solutions to the NIMBY problem that jump out at you?

Sue Williams  08:19

I was reading about Philip Thalis, who’s an architect and he used to be a councillor on the City of Sydney. He keeps saying that tall towers aren’t necessarily the answer for lots of suburbs; there can be much smaller towers, like eight-storey blocks and lower. That kind of median density is much more acceptable to many people. And lots of people would quite like to live in a building which is only eight-storeys high. I mean, it’s really interesting. We live on the 15th-floor of a building, and we have some people who visit us, who go onto the balcony and say “oh, I could never live this high! Oh, I feel ill,  just looking over the balcony.” So there’s certainly some people who really don’t like living high in the sky and other people who do really like it. So eight-storeys would be quite a nice compromise, in lots of ways. I was talking to another architect yesterday, who has designed a house; it was formally just a shop, with a little apartment above and he’s grafted this house onto it. It’s a really small house, but it’s such an ingenious design. Even though it’s got a very small footprint, it does everything he needs for a house. He said it really makes him realise that we just don’t need these huge spaces; we just need really workable spaces. And if you get really well-designed spaces, then we don’t need such big buildings anymore. We can all live quite happily in 80-square metres, really, if it’s a well -designed area. If it’s a crappy-designed area, then we need maybe, 160 square metres.

Jimmy Thomson  10:00

Just to get away from ourselves. One of the issues that’s suggested in the articles that you sent, was that there are too many two-bedroom flats being built and not enough three-bedroom flats, in terms of getting families into apartment blocks. I mean, is that something else state government should be imposing; that there should be a certain number of three-bedroom flats in every apartment block?

Sue Williams  10:00

I think that’s a good idea, but you know, the market kind of rates itself sometimes. I think developers now are actually building a lot more three-bedroom apartments, because they realise that families are moving into apartments, whereas before, they’d always assume it was just couples and singles. Now, families are actually moving in there and also, extended families are moving. They can see there’s a big demand for bigger apartments, so they’re actually building them. You know, sometimes it just takes them a little while to catch-up.

Jimmy Thomson  10:59

Yes, there’s a lag. I think I’ve got an ingenious solution to the NIMBY problem… Basically, the state government and the council’s say “there is going to be an 8 or 10-storey block built in this space; that’s going to happen, right? Here are three designs; what they will look like from the outside,” and get local people to vote on them.

Sue Williams  11:31

That is an interesting idea.

Jimmy Thomson  11:33

The local people who would otherwise be marching in the street and saying ‘no high-rises here’, will be told “well, you’re getting one. But you get to choose the look of the thing. Do you want it to be a bit retro? Or do you want it to be modern and glass and steel? Or do you really not care that much; you just don’t like the idea and you don’t want things to change?” I reckon that could work.

Sue Williams  12:02

I mean, it’s very democratic, isn’t it? And if the three designs are good designs from well-known architects, or really experienced architects, then it shouldn’t matter too much, which one they choose, because any one of those is going to be okay.

Jimmy Thomson  12:17

Then the architects can then take that design to another suburb and say “look, this has worked really well elsewhere.” I think that could work. So, who do I call?

Sue Williams  12:29

I mean, it’s hard to take it to another area, because architects would always say that every project is designed and built according to its location. The orientation and the views and site plans; all that kind of thing.

Jimmy Thomson  12:48

They say that, and then you drive down some of these streets in  the suburbs and it’s just block after block that look identical. And that’s not a good look; it just isn’t. It hurts your eyes. When we come back, we’re going to talk about dodgy real estate agents and a supposed crackdown on them. That’s after this.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

And we’re back. There’s a story in the paper (I’ll put the link into the story notes), about another crackdown on dodgy real estate agents. And it’s quoting some story about somebody who’s been done for embezzlement. It just reminded me that there’s been all this talk about rent-bidding, and under-quoting and all the rest of it… I’m yet to hear of a real estate agent who’s been told “you can’t operate anymore. You breached our rules, and we don’t trust you, so you’re going to take a year off from being a real estate agent,” or anything like that. Have you come across anything like that?

Sue Williams  14:03

No. I’ve heard of people having their knuckles rapped, that’s all. I guess they maybe say “oh, you’ve got to have three warnings,” or something. But I’ve only ever heard of people getting warnings. I mean, it’s different if it’s a criminal act; somebody taking money out of bonds and things and using it for jewellery and perfume.

Jimmy Thomson  14:03

But that’s about being a dodgy person, not a dodgy real estate agent.

Sue Williams  14:04

Sure. I haven’t heard of people receiving proper punishments.

Jimmy Thomson  14:08

I think they should actually really have their knuckles rapped. I think there should be somebody with a stick, who comes around their office and says “put your hand on the table. You’re gonna get your knuckles rapped.” But seriously, I’m not suggesting corporal punishment. The other part of this is real estate agents. They get a lot of knuckle-rapping going on in there, that makes no difference. I mean, to be clear, the majority of agents who are members of Strata Community Association (SCA), are trying to lift their professional standards and have been doing so for years. But there are still people out there, who just pick up a licence from somewhere and they’re making all sorts of bad decisions; basically, just so that they can get a gig. They will always go along with the chair or the secretary of their committee, and ordinary owners can’t get a look in, because the real estate agent is acting as a gatekeeper. They often don’t know the law, or they don’t care about the law. And nobody ever comes along and says “you are demonstrably, a really bad strata manager, and you cannot do this anymore.”

Sue Williams  15:55

Absolutely, I think you’re probably quite right. I mean, you sound a bit like Roy and HG, when you’re doing one of those rants. But I think you’re right.

Jimmy  16:06

I should be so lucky, to be as funny as those guys.

Sue Williams  16:13

There should be a lot more curbs on people’s behaviour. I mean, maybe even if they get a number of complaints against them, they should be investigated by an independent outside body. Just to have a look, to make sure it’s not people who didn’t get their own way, who were just complaining as a result, or whether they’re really justifiable complaints.

Jimmy Thomson  16:34

Maybe a strata ombudsman; a real one, not a fake one (who just calls herself that). A real one, that’s set up by the government, who can come in and say “you have done this too many times; off you go, you’re suspended for a year.” And it’s a criminal offence if you have been suspended as a strata manager or a real estate agent and you continue to practice in any way.

Sue Williams  17:00

I’m sure there’s many veteran real estate agents or veteran strata managers, who’d love to do that kind of job, wouldn’t they?

Jimmy  17:06

Yes, absolutely. They’d relish it, because they’re the ones who get the complaints. It’s their reputation that’s damaged by all the cowboys.

Sue Williams  17:15

And they’d like to see their industry cleaned up.

Jimmy Thomson  17:18

True. I’ve had a couple of messages on the Flat Chat forum, from people who have taken complaints against their strata managers to Fair Trading, and Fair Trading, have rapped them on the knuckles. And what happens is, the strata manager says “well, I’m not going to be the strata manager in this scheme anymore.” And then there’s blowback on the person who’s complained, because all the other people are saying “oh, we’ve got to find another strata manager now, because you made a stupid complaint.” Look, it’s an imperfect world; it definitely is. I’ve got to get ready… I’ve got to get packed; I’ve got to get on a plane in a couple of hours. Heading back towards Sydney, at last.

Sue Williams  18:06

Great! And you’re probably never going to go away again, are you? After being overseas three times this year, already?

Jimmy  18:12

Well, I think I’ve done my share of travel for this year, that’s for sure; certainly international travel. Premium economy loses its charm very quickly, after the third 12-hour flight. Sue, thank you for coming on board. Thank you for your patience in getting set up. In about a week’s time, we’ll actually be able to do this face-to -face.

Sue Williams  18:40

Fantastic. I look forward to it Jimmy; safe travels.

Jimmy Thomson  18:43

Okay, and thank you all for listening. We’ll talk to you again soon. Bye.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

Thanks for listening to the Flat Chat Wrap podcast. You’ll find links to the stories and other references on our website flatchat.com.au. And if you haven’t already done so, you can subscribe to this podcast completely free on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or your favourite pod -catcher. Just search for Flat Chat Wrap with a w, click on subscribe, and you’ll get this podcast every week, without even trying. Thanks again. Talk to you again next week.