Podcast: Smears and fears as Commish targetted

If NSW Building Commissioner David Chandler has served no other function, he earns our respect and gratitude for being a very useful source of entertaining, informative and occasionally horrifying stories.

The latest, from a parliamentary committee meeting, involves an allegation that development company’s executives had tried to smear him with a suggestion that he had demanded a $5million bribe to back off from a development where he’d banned sales until defects were fixed.

We pick the bones out of that in the podcast. 

But Commissioner Chandler isn’t just a fruitful source of juicy tales, and we speculate as to where the next phase of his property development revolution is going.

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We have heard suggestions that he is now going to turn his fearsome gaze towards buildings that have defects and are still under warranty.

Why? Because recognising you have defects in your building and knowing your rights is no guarantee that the developer and builder will fix them. Far from it, in many cases.

And we also take a look at how Sydney’s lower north shore seems destined to be the next hot spot for apartments and the shops and services that people want and need in a modern city.

All that and more in this week’s Flat Chat Wrap.

If you enjoyed listening to this podcast (or reading the transcript), please share it with your friends using the social media buttons on this page.

TRANSCRIPT IN FULL

Jimmy  00:00

We always seem to be just one step ahead of the news on this podcast.

Sue  00:05

Yes!

Jimmy  00:05

Last week, we were talking about dodgy developers and them having the same DNA as criminals and this week, we find out that David Chandler has said that a developer (who has been described as ‘dodgy’ in parliament), tried to implicate him in demanding bribes. So, we’ll be talking about that. We’ll be talking about the next phase of David Chandler’s work, which is remediation of buildings that are less than six years old and have defects. And you’re going to tell us about things that are happening on the lower North Shore of Sydney?

Sue  00:46

Yes, about revitalising CBD’s.

Jimmy  00:48

Okay. I’m Jimmy Thomson, I write the Flat Chat column for the Australian Financial Review.

Sue  00:54

And I’m Sue Williams, and I write about property for Domain.

Jimmy  00:56

And this is the Flat Chat Wrap. That was a stunning piece of news that came out last week…

Sue  01:16

It was, wasn’t it?

Jimmy  01:17

Yes, I mean, according to the Sydney Morning Herald and according to David Chandler; at a Parliamentary Estimates Committee meeting, he was talking about the Toplace Group, whom he has identified in the past as being (or they have been named in Parliament), as dodgy developers. They have this very flamboyant CEO, Jean Nassif, who is typical of that kind of person; you know, he was famous for giving his wife, a bright yellow Lamborghini, and of course, that appeared all over social media. They’ve got a development called Skyview (I think it’s in Castle Hill), which David Chandler had slapped an order on, saying, they should not sell any more apartments, until they had fixed defects in the building. According to his testimony at the parliamentary committee, he was at a meeting with them to discuss this, and one of the Toplace executives (who he has not named), read out an email saying ‘put $5 million into a trust account, and we can make the Skyview problem go away.’

Sue  01:25

Wow!

Jimmy  01:26

You know, there’s a couple of things that occured. He told them ‘oh, well, just take that straight to the police, because that’s extortion.’   They declined to do that, but then he heard that a journalist had been briefed by somebody saying ‘did you know David Chandler is corrupt, and he’s asked for $5 million as a bribe?’ And even then, Fair Trading minister, Kevin Anderson, had somebody come up to him in a meeting, saying ‘how do you feel about your Building Commissioner being corrupt?’

Sue  03:11

That’s incredible, isn’t it? My god!

Jimmy  03:14

So obviously, somebody is working on the basis that if (it’s the old Trump thing), you tell a lie often enough, then it eventually becomes the truth.

Sue  03:23

Because people think ‘oh, there’s no smoke without fire; there’s something dodgy going on.’ I’m amazed that this kind of stuff happened. I mean, it used to happen in the bad old days, but I’m amazed that it still happens today.

Jimmy  03:38

I’m amazed at how stupid… well, the person who came up with this plan… It’s kind of disappointing that our alleged criminals are so dim, that they would think that this would work.

Sue  03:51

Well, it’s reassuring that they’re so dim, Jimmy! You don’t want to be disappointed in them!

Jimmy  03:56

We deserve a better calibre of criminals. David Chandler; there’s no way he’s corrupt, in any way or sense, at all. That they would think if he was, he would send an email! You might as well wear a T-shirt saying ‘give me 5 million dollars and I’ll go away.’

Sue  04:23

It’s quite preposterous, isn’t it, really? I suppose in the past, politicians have admitted receiving money from developers and then have voted at local council level, or state level or whatever, and then voted on the developments; voted to approve them, or perhaps, stood aside and certainly not voted against them, and maybe even spoke on their behalf. But, you know, somebody in David Chandler’s position; to think that he could be bought off for $5 million…

Jimmy  04:55

Or any sum. Then we had that case of Eddie Obeid and the mining minister, and they’re up to their armpits in dodgy dealings. There were various trials going on and Eddie Obeid went to jail, briefly. That old saying ‘money is the root of all evil…’ Well, actually the full saying is ‘the love of money is the root of all evil,’ and that’s a different thing. It’s people who have a lot, who just need to have more, by whatever means. And also, people who get into politics, who feel privileged (entitled, I should say), to get whatever they can get out of it. The vast majority of politicians are people who get into it because they believe in something, but there are others who just see it as an opportunity to enrich themselves, or when that opportunity comes along, they grab it. This kind of puts the whole Eleni Petinos thing in a slightly different context, in that (and I’m sure the Premier knew about this approach to David Chandler, because I think it was reported to ICAC, so certainly, the Fair Trading secretary would have known about it)…I’ve got a feeling that when there were complaints about the approach to Coronation Property, and John Barilaro asking David Chandler to reconsider and go and talk to them and stuff… I wonder if the Premier just went ‘oh, this is too much. There’s too much of this going on. I’ve got to cut it out; stop it.’ I’m not saying that Eleni Petinos was in any way involved with the Toplace Group, or indeed, was corrupt or anything like that. As you said, you know, people are very quick to say ‘oh, there’s no smoke without fire,’ which is all it takes to destroy somebody’s reputation and their career. I wonder if the Premier (although he’s not admitting as such), has gone ‘there’s too much smoke around here. I need to just clear it all out.’ Well, that’s true, because not everybody is stupid enough to try and do something as blatant, with somebody who knows exactly how these things work, because you know, David Chandler has been in the building industry for 50 years. He will have seen it all, from just about every angle and he would know… It’s one of these situations where he did exactly the right thing. He said ‘call the police; tell the police about this,’ and basically called their bluff.

Sue  07:24

And there’s too much at stake, as well. You know, those are just two examples we know about. You kind of think there’s probably a lot more instances of that happening, that we just don’t know about. Yes, absolutely.

Jimmy  08:12

So yes, interesting times.

Sue  08:16

No wonder he felt that he really had to have the support of the government to do that job and if that support wasn’t forthcoming, he didn’t want to do that job anymore. I mean, what a tough job and if you had a minister not 100% behind you… I mean, how could you possibly hope to survive and thrive?

Jimmy  08:36

You have to be squeaky clean; there’s no grey area there.

Sue  08:41

No, it’s all or nothing.

Jimmy  08:44

We’re going to take a little break and when we come back, we’ll talk a bit more about David Chandler and what he is up to now (when he is not being undermined by politicians and property developers). It’s after this.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

So, what is David Chandler up to at the moment, Sue?

Sue  09:07

Well, one of the things he’s doing, is he’s appearing at an Urban Task force conference next Friday.

Jimmy  09:15

Who are the Urban Taskforce?

Sue  09:18

A group of developers that have got together and talk about development, really. He’s speaking at the conference and also, Victor Dominello is appearing at the conference, as well.

Jimmy  09:28

Right, so should we expect a big announcement, do you think, from David Chandler, or Victor Dominello, in fact?

Sue  09:36

It’s absolutely possible. I mean, the two of them are appearing side-by -side. It’s still quite rare, really, especially after everything that’s happened. So maybe, Victor Dominello is giving him a bigger staff perhaps, because he wants to expand his work; we know about that. I don’t know. Or maybe, they’re going to develop in another direction, as well.

Jimmy  09:59

Well, I think one of the things he’s been talking about, is now that he has, at the very least, put the cat among the pigeons, in terms of new and upcoming developments and certainly set up the infrastructure so that they can control the quality of buildings that are being built… He is now, I believe, going to be looking at recent builds; the blocks that are under six years old, who are still within the warranty period, but who have defects.

Sue  10:31

And so the owners of those apartments will be thinking about taking legal action against developers, or negotiating with developers for settlements to correct the defects, but maybe are having problems. So he might come along and give them a helping hand, then?

Jimmy  10:49

Well, this is what is unclear at the moment. We know that’s what he wants to do, but how he’s actually going to make that work… He clearly is not a man who is keen to build huge bureaucratic infrastructures. He does favour a much more direct approach, certainly in the development side, where he’s basically said ‘let’s look at these certifiers and identify the ones who are linked with the most number of failed projects. And let’s look at the ones that are linked with the most number of builders who have gone phoenoxing;’ you know, have gone into liquidation. He just got that Venn diagram and said ‘right, these certifiers are at the root of the problem; at the very least, they’re enablers for the dodgy developers,’ and that has been very effective. Now, obviously, that can’t necessarily happen with buildings that have been completed, but have defects. The big problem there is, the owners corporation has to first of all, identify the defects and then they’ve got to try and get them (and they’ve got to give the builder the first chance), to come and fix them. As we know only too well, there can be a process of slowing down and nods and winks and the chairpersons of these strata committees can actually be helping the developer to not have to fix the problems. Often it’s a case that the developer ‘Duchesses’ them; you know, tells them ‘oh mate, don’t worry about it; we’ll get it done. You and me. You know, you’re a smart bloke; we’ll get this fixed between us.’ And then two or three years pass and nothing gets done. I’m sure he has formulated a plan to cut through all that and help people who need to get their defects fixed, get it done. That will be fascinating to see what he comes up with and there’d be a lot of people in that situation, because we’ve had a huge number of buildings underway, over the last five years. Yes. And we also have people who are much more aware of their rights.

Sue  12:59

Yes, much more educated apartment buyers.

Jimmy  13:03

So people are not just putting up with whatever the building manager or strata manager says, because occasionally, those people are in cahoots with the developer, as well. So that’s an interesting thing. But another thing he spoke about a while ago (and I think this is what he calls ‘encoring buildings…)’ This is where you’ve got a large number of older buildings that are getting to the end of their designed lifespan. They’re still standing; they are still habitable, but they need work and he is concerned that a lot of the remediation work that’s going on in these buildings, is just not up to standard.

Sue  13:50

God, that’s a real issue, isn’t it?

Jimmy  13:53

Yes. But there’s no structure in there for checking partial remediation of older buildings, because it’s seen as a kind of renovation, rather than a build. I think he may well be looking at that. If not now, in the near future.

Sue  14:14

Well, that’s a really good thing, isn’t it? Because you get an inexperienced group of apartment owners… I mean, when I say ‘inexperienced,’ I mean, we’re all inexperienced. None of us are construction experts; very few of us. And, you know, we’ll go along, we’ll have guidance from our strata manager; our building manager. We will get three quotes from different companies to fix our defects and we’ll go with the one that we think is okay, or is the cheapest. I guess it has to be certified though, doesn’t it, the work?

Jimmy  14:47

Well, I think that’s the question; does it have to be certified? Who comes in? I mean, basically, you say you’ve got to have your tradespeople, your builder, whatever; they have to be insured and certified. But the actual work that was done, who is checking that?

Sue  15:05

So you might have real problems within your six years. You might think you’ve got them all fixed and then eight years down the track, when you’re no longer under warranty, that work disintegrates, or is proven to not be up to the task. Or also, the company themselves; they’re contracted to do a certain job and if they see the job’s blowing out into something much bigger, they may go back to the strata committee and say ‘look, this is the issue,’ but they might be in the mind that they might lose the original job. Or, they might think ‘well, I’ll get a much bigger job.’ There’s lots of imponderables there, really.

Jimmy  15:20

And there’s also the question of, in doing the work to remediate older buildings, you might find more serious problems. And if somebody in the strata committee goes ‘oh, can you just cover that up? I’d quite like to sell my apartment, when everything’s looking nice and new…’  Lots of moving parts. And I think that’s a problem, where there’s not going to be one simple solution, but there may be a strategy, an overall strategy, that will help with some of these things. Just one thing that has occurred to me today; if you do a major renovation on your own home, you’ve got to go and get certified by the local council. I think it’s still the case; you’ve got to do a course, to show that you’re capable of doing a certain amount of work in your own house. That might have changed. But you know, it was based on the value of the work that you were doing. What qualifications do you need to be a property developer?

Sue  16:51

I don’t know. You probably have to do a one-week course.

Jimmy  16:55

I don’t think you even do that. I think you turn up at a bank with some drawings. You say ‘I’m going to buy this piece of land. I’m going to build these apartments here. Lend me the money to get started and then I will sell the apartments and make the money that way and you’ll get your money back.’ It’s the kind of thing you feel (given the history of what has happened in property development), that maybe, a police check would be a good idea?

Sue  17:28

Yes!

Jimmy  17:29

And also, for somebody to sit them down and look at the accounts of the figures; the projected figures for these apartments.

Sue  17:41

Well, banks would do that, wouldn’t they? And they would also look at the credit worthiness.

Jimmy  17:45

They would look at the credit worthiness, but will they say ‘okay, we’ve done a forensic analysis of your plan and to sell these properties at that price, this is the quality of build that you’re going to have, and it’s not going to be good enough. You’re going to have to make shortcuts?’ The last thing the government wants is to put barriers in the way of property development, because we need to build houses. But there should be some sort of check in there; that somebody in that company (or they have access to somebody in the company), that can look at that and say ‘look, if you build these apartments to sell at this price, it’s going to be a three-star development, rather than a five-star development.’ On that note, we’ll take another break. When we come back, we’re going to talk about the lower North Shore. That’s after this.

[PROMO]

Jimmy

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Jimmy

Alright, Sue, what’s happening in Sydney’s lower North Shore?

Sue  19:20

As you know, it’s Sydney’s second or third CBD. We’ve got the central Sydney CBD, we’ve got Parramatta and we’ve got North Sydney and I think the next one is Liverpool… But the problem with the CBD’s at the moment is that after Covid, Lots of people aren’t going back in there to work, so lots of offices are still being really under-utilised. There’s not enough custom there, to keep all the cafes and restaurants and businesses in the city centres going. I think lots of CBD’s are having to think about what they can do to bring more people in and on the lower North Shore, they’re kind of quite advanced in their planning. I think it’s always been a little bit of a b-grade CBD, in some ways. There’s lots of office towers, but they’re all kind of b-grade and crumbling a little bit and a bit dreary and old-fashioned. A number of companies have seen the potential and they’ve gone in there and they’re either replacing those buildings, with a-grade or premium-grade buildings, office towers, or renovating them and refurbishing them, so they’re of a much better standard. But one of the things they’re also doing, is building a lot more apartments around that CBD and that seems to be the secret behind rejuvenating the CBDs. Because if you can get a lot more residents into them, then hopefully it will become livelier long-term. You know, the night-time economy at  weekends; it won’t be so dead. I mean, Clover Moore did that in the Sydney CBD a few years ago; she said ‘no, we need to get more people in.’ But now, this idea has become supercharged, because of Covid really, and in the lower North Shore, they’re doing that. The prices of property have been going up hugely, because it’s becoming seen as a much more pleasant place to live and it’s a place where you can work quite close by. It’s pleasant; it’s green, you’ve got the Harbour closer to the water and you’ve got a lot of luxury properties, as well as more affordable properties. So the ones that are being built, cover a huge range of apartment types.  It will be interesting to see how that develops, so to speak. Yes, absolutely. I think one of the apartment developers said that North Sydney is a sleeping giant. It was always inevitable, that it would wake up and then catch up, to the rest of the CBD’s around Australia. It just seems to be all happening at the moment, really, so it’s really interesting.

Jimmy  21:57

Keep an eye on that one. Okay. We are pretty much out of time. Thank you very much, for coming and chatting. We’ll wait to see what announcements come out of the Urban Taskforce meeting. I’ve got a feeling it’s going to be something quite big.

Sue  22:15

Well, you keep saying you’re ahead of the news, Jimmy, so let’s see! You’ve got a reputation to safeguard now!

Jimmy  22:24

Thanks for coming in and talking to us and thank you all for listening.

[MUSIC]

Jimmy

Thanks for listening to the Flat Chat Wrap podcast. You’ll find links to the stories and other references on our website, flatchat.com.au. And if you haven’t already done so, you can subscribe to this podcast completely free on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or your favourite podcatcher. Just search for Flat Chat Wrap with a w, click on subscribe, and you’ll get this podcast every week, without even trying. Thanks again. Talk to you again next week.