Flat Chat Strata Forum Neighbour noise Current Page

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  • #8541
    Austman
    Flatchatter

      This is not quite neighbour noise.  But noise from OC owned equipment.

      The ventilation system of our underground car park is listed as an Essential Service on our Occupancy Permit.   So the OC is obliged to operate, repair and maintain it and any alteration to it requires a Building Permit and possibly an amendment to our Occupancy Permit.

      The car park exhaust fans start up and run for some minutes after a car has entered or exited.  We only have 14 car spaces and traffic movement is light – so it operates probably less than 10 times a day.

      The problem is it’s noisy.

      But it was just as noisy 8 years ago when the building was first certified and occupied.  Possibly (I’m not sure) council noise requirements were met then.  And to date no one have ever complained.  I have even asked a few residents who live near to the car park and they have always said “It doesn’t bother us”.

      But now it does bother 2 new residents.    So as a responsible OC, we are trying to do something.  If it was an air conditioner we’d know there are rules about AC noise and hours of operation.  But this is Essential Services equipment – we are required by law to operate it for health/safety reasons.  I’m not sure if that overrides general noise laws…

      The complainers want the system replaced because it can disturb their sleep (maybe a few times a night, on a busy night, for a few minutes).  Replacing the system will no doubt  be very expensive. The complainers have not offered to pay – claiming it’s building defect.  We have said we’ll look into fitting noise dampers and have contacted an Acoustic Engineer (as per the fan manufacturer’s advice).  And we’d like to get objective rather than subjective noise readings.

      I’m sympathetic for the complainers – there’s no doubt the fans can be heard – but are they that noisy for that often?  Others in the building don’t think so.

      Still, we are trying to do something.  But getting Acoustic Engineers even interested is proving problematic. 

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    • #17125
      Whale
      Flatchatter

        Just a thought…..

        Acoustic Engineers who sometimes aren’t Chartered Engineers (sorry for the bias) assess car park ventilation systems on the basis of noise levels against the occupational health standards applicable to workplaces, and that can be subjective depending upon the workplace classification selected.

        It’s often better to adopt a performance-based assessment against air quality standards, where natural air-flow is taken into account and possibly optimised to reduce forced ventilation frequencies, and to thereby reduce the noise and energy impacts of that.

        I’d suggest you ‘google’ Air Quality Monitoring and get some quotes. I’m sure you’ll find more interest for a lower cost and possibly a better outcome all ’round.

        #17135
        Austman
        Flatchatter
        Chat-starter

          Thanks for the suggestion Whale.

          I’m sure our current system works well as far as car park ventilation is concerned.  It’s the noise it makes (and only the noise at night) that is the issue.  We are in a heritage listed building with very limited possibility to alter air-flows etc. 

          Changing the existing system needs a building permit,  performance certifications and an amendment to our Occupancy Permit etc.  The costs for this ‘paperwork’ alone are around $10,000.00.  Then there are the purchase and installation costs of the new system and the removal costs of the old one.  It will probably end up costing some tens of thousands of dollars for an OC of 12 owners.  And all of this because of one complaint after 8 years of operation.

          So we on the committee have decided that we will get the Acoustic Engineer and see what can be done to the existing system.  At this point we are not even sure that the OC is technically at fault.  Perhaps the system is working within legal sound limits.  We’ll establish that too.  And a side issue  – when a lot owner accuses an OC of operating illegal equipment is it up to the OC to spend thousands of dollars (the Acoustic Engineer with cost over $1,000 in our case) to establish if the the lot owner is right or wrong?

          #17137
          Whale
          Flatchatter

            Austman – Clearly, you know your building, but the point I was making is that a performance-based assessment of air quality may reveal that the existing ventilation system is over-doing it, and that you may be able to reduce the frequency of its operation and/or slow the rpm of the fan/s in order to reduce the noise and operational costs. I expect that adjustments of that type (as opposed to changes) to the ventilation system wouldn’t affect existing approvals.

            Anyway, it’s something to keep in your back pocket if the acoustics assessment doesn’t lead to improvements that resolve the complainant’s issues, which if it helps at all, he/she is contributing to by 1/12. 

            #17143
            Austman
            Flatchatter
            Chat-starter

              Thanks Whale, we’ll certainly keep that option in mind although any change to the existing system’s operation will probably need the whole Building Permit, re-certification, Occupancy Permit amendment path.

              The system passed all it’s Occupancy Permit requirements 8 years ago.  I can hear the fans too (just) as a small part of my living room is effectively right above the car park area where the fans are and they don’t bother me at all. 

              We’ll get some objective noise measurements done and take it from there.

              In Victoria, certain equipment is exempt from the tough EPA residential noise laws including “equipment for personal care”.  I’m not sure if preventing carbon monoxide poisoning counts as equipment for personal care…

              #20313
              Austman
              Flatchatter
              Chat-starter

                I thought I’d post a follow up.

                The OC Committee commissioned an Acoustic Engineer to investigate the noise issue. The Acoustic Engineer deemed the noise to be “illegal” and that “an authority (e.g. health officer from the council) could order the OC to rectify the noise problem under the health act or noise regulations”.  The engineer recommended a change to a Carbon Monoxide Monitoring System (CMMS). All other advice to the Committee suggested that in a low use small residential car park (eg 14 spaces), the likelihood of ventilation fans being needed for a single car arrival or departure would be low.  When used with a Variable Speed Drive, even if the fans were needed, they could be slow started and initially run at lower (meaning quieter) speeds.

                The change to a CMMS needed a building permit process.  That alone would normally mean a special resolution of the OC.   And as only one resident would benefit, the Committee thought that a special resolution would most likely fail.  But because the noise was deemed illegal, the Committee was advised that a special resolution of the OC in this case would not be required – OC’s must operate within the law.  So the Committee alone decided to install the CMMS at OC expense.

                The cost was not quite as expensive as we thought: approximately $7,000 with around $2,000 of that being for all the process paperwork required.

                The CMMS has solved the noise issue.  The fans rarely operate now and even when they do, they are initially slow started (over 20 seconds) to 40% speed. They are very much quieter at this speed.  But if needed they can still be operated at full speed.

                It was interesting to see what the actual CO PPM (Carbon Monoxide Parts Per Million) levels in the car park were.  First, here’s what AS 1668.2 states:

                Exposure Limit
                AS1668.2 allows for:
                Any arrangement that is demonstrated to limit the CO concentration, between 900 mm and 2500 mm above the floor, everywhere to –
                (i) 60 ppm 1 h maximum average;
                (ii) 100 ppm peak value; and
                (iii) 30 ppm (Time Weighted Average) 8 h.

                With no car activity the controller reads 0 PPM . An arriving car (warm engine) often doesn’t  increase the CO level at all.  Not even by 1 PPM.  But a departing car (cold engine) can cause a ‘cloud’ of CO which can sometimes exceed 30 PPM but quickly drops (in 25 seconds or so) to a steady 4 to 5 PPM once the ‘cloud’ disperses.  If there’s no further car activity, the CO level slowly returns to 0 PPM over the next hour or two.

                The CMMS uses less electricity (due to less fan operation) but that saving is offset by increased maintenance costs (the CO sensor needs periodic calibration checks).

                The bottom line: We have two very happy residents.

                 

                #20318
                Whale
                Flatchatter

                  Thanks for closing the loop; I’m glad that the performance based assessment produced the desired outcome. 

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